Hearthstone and Magic

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Peter
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Hearthstone and Magic

Post by Peter » Sat Nov 05, 2016 16:56

Some random talk about TCGs/CCGs:

1.) I tested Hearthstone a bit. But with its 9 classes it is by far not as exciting as Magic the Gathering with its 5 colours. It's fun, though.

2.) I got hold of some Magic cards and I must say, Magic's art is great. Unfortunately "Magic Duels" doesn't work for on my Windows-10-PC. Not to mention on my Linux.

3.) WTactic's art is really great, too!

4.) Something else:
Magic has lands and mana and 5 colours. Is there some mechanism in WT which is as easy to understand? I'm not talking about the complete rule of MtG and WT here. I'm talking about some special rules aspect. (This aspect must not neccessarily be the ressources or the land.)
Kind regards and happy coding :)
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snowdrop
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Re: Hearthstone and Magic

Post by snowdrop » Sat Nov 05, 2016 18:51

Peter wrote:Some random talk about TCGs/CCGs:

1.) I tested Hearthstone a bit. But with its 9 classes it is by far not as exciting as Magic the Gathering with its 5 colours. It's fun, though.

In what way did the number of factions, alone, make Hearthstone less exciting? I don't follow (even if I happen to agree that they're two very different games and prefer the one).

2.) I got hold of some Magic cards and I must say, Magic's art is great.
Yes, 90% of the art is really great, and most often by very good artists as well. However, it's not consistent in style and involves thousands of artists by now. There is some, but minimal, art direction over time. They often do a good job keeping it consistent within a set/block though.

Unfortunately "Magic Duels" doesn't work for on my Windows-10-PC. Not to mention on my Linux.
I just tried Magic Duels (the free one) on my win10. Works here, so it's not that specific version of windows that's the issue.
4.) Something else:
Magic has lands and mana and 5 colours. Is there some mechanism in WT which is as easy to understand? I'm not talking about the complete rule of MtG and WT here. I'm talking about some special rules aspect. (This aspect must not neccessarily be the ressources or the land.)
ARC has a resource system that has one resource for every faction, exactly like MtG, and is even easier to grasp. ORC has only a single resource for all factions, else it's identical to MtG:s. Both ARC and ORC have easier to understand (and execute) resource handling, even when putting down/using cards as resources.

I'm not sure I understood the question though...
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Peter
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Re: Hearthstone and Magic

Post by Peter » Sat Nov 05, 2016 20:18

In what way did the number of factions, alone, make Hearthstone less exciting? I don't follow (even if I happen to agree that they're two very different games and prefer the one).
The magic system, which easy to understand colour "style" (like white = defense, justice, weenies) makes it more clear what the own benefit and drawback and what the enemy's benefit and drawback is.
- It is exciting to fight with white restrained style against "Rush in" red style and "evil" black style. [Insert your favorite colour's strangth and style here]
- It is exciting to grasp what's the opponent is about in one thought.
- It is exciting to easily understand the game mechanism in my opinion.
- I couldn't identify with any of those Hearthstone classes. Because the specialization is not that clear/intuitive and doesn't match my interpretation of those classes (which I have from RPG or books or TV/movies or PC games).
2.) I got hold of some Magic cards and I must say, Magic's art is great.
Yes, 90% of the art is really great, and most often by very good artists as well. However, it's not consistent in style and involves thousands of artists by now. There is some, but minimal, art direction over time. They often do a good job keeping it consistent within a set/block though.
Yeah, I agree. There are (very few) ugly exceptions when it comes to MtG art. And the first editions are not as beautiful as the rest, but still more beautiful than any Yu-Gi-Oh card or .HEX or Pokemon TCG or Schwarz and Weiss or whatever TCG.
Unfortunately "Magic Duels" doesn't work for on my Windows-10-PC. Not to mention on my Linux.
I just tried Magic Duels (the free one) on my win10. Works here, so it's not that specific version of windows that's the issue.
OK, if it's not Win10, I will contact the Magic Duels support.
4.) Something else:
Magic has lands and mana and 5 colours. Is there some mechanism in WT which is as easy to understand? I'm not talking about the complete rule of MtG and WT here. I'm talking about some special rules aspect. (This aspect must not neccessarily be the ressources or the land.)
ARC has a resource system that has one resource for every faction, exactly like MtG, and is even easier to grasp. ORC has only a single resource for all factions, else it's identical to MtG:s. Both ARC and ORC have easier to understand (and execute) resource handling, even when putting down/using cards as resources.

I'm not sure I understood the question though...
Great! I didn't know that the ressource system in ARC and ORC is that easy. Nice!
My question is: Which element of ARC (or same for ORC) is so easy that it is understood immediately? It could be anything but it must be simple.
Kind regards and happy coding :)
ngoeminne
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Re: Hearthstone and Magic

Post by ngoeminne » Thu Nov 17, 2016 17:42

Hi Peter,
snowdrop edited - Peter wrote:Great! I didn't know that the ressource system in ARC and ORC is that easy. Nice!
My question is: Which element of ARC (or same for ORC) is so easy that it is understood immediately? It could be anything but it must be simple.
Kind of a strange question. Overall ARC/ORC is no more difficult then MTG.
Can I ask you a return question.

Did you read the ARC rules? If so, what parts would you consider simple and what parts are difficult?
If you know MTG, the ARC is explained quickly.

So what are the easy parts:

Win conditions : get 30 VP
Lose condition: 0 VP, or all cities destroyed or no more cards to draw
Resource system: every card is a resource, just put face down and choose the kind (red, green, ...)
Deck : 45 cards, 3 of them cities, they start in play.
Draw: choose to draw 0, 1 or 2 cards; play 2, 1 or 0 resources (according to the chosen draw)


What are the 'hard' parts:

Additional spatial component
=========================
- the table-battlefield is divided into 4 zones. The army, and 1 zone per city
- creatures are cast/played in a city and then 'moved' around (e.g. to the army)
- creatures in a city can not attack, creatures in the army can attack
- attacking player choose where he attacks (a opponent's city or army)
- cities can be defended by there residents, or/and the army

Tatical phase
===========
- after unmark, draw and resource there is a tactical phase where you can get advantages provided by your city
- in your tactics phase you "activate" the an advantage by showing some "devotion" to your city.
- in practice, you mark a number of creatures in the city and sum up their loyalty marks;
if that sum reaches the given cities level, the advantage is activated.

That's it, the rest is more or less like MTG

If you don't like to read the complete ARC, I suggest you do the following:
- take a look at the battleground layout picture
- read the city type explanation
- read the creature's movement explanation

That shouldn't take long, and a lot of things will become clear.
Kind regards,
Nico
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Peter
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Re: Hearthstone and Magic

Post by Peter » Thu Nov 17, 2016 18:30

ngoeminne wrote: ...
Did you read the ARC rules? If so, what parts would you consider simple and what parts are difficult?
...
ARC rules are a lot easier to read than they were the last time I looked. And having a learning session with the online engine with you helped getting it generally clearer.

The following rules sections in the ARC text seem complicated to me:
- resource cards
- card layout (I understand that it is not possible to make that more simple)
- the kingdom (it surely is more complicated than MtG, isn't it?)
- playing a card (it's quite ok, but could be briefer)
- turn structure

And the following look complicated, overwhelming and long:
- cities
- combat sequence
Kind regards and happy coding :)
ngoeminne
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Hearthstone and Magic

Post by ngoeminne » Thu Nov 17, 2016 20:51

Hi Peter,

Glad that our intro game made things a bit more clear.
Peter wrote:The following rules sections in the ARC text seem complicated to me:
- resource cards
- card layout (I understand that it is not possible to make that more simple)
- the kingdom (it surely is more complicated than MtG, isn't it?)
- playing a card (it's quite ok, but could be briefer)
- turn structure

And the following look complicated, overwhelming and long:
- cities
- combat sequence
- resource cards: they act the same as in MTG, you indicate them used/unused (e.g. by moving a counter, rotating the card, ...)
- card layout: there are the same number of variables on it as MTG, so that shouldn't be to hard
- the kingdom with the cities is what makes the spacial difference (a bit more complicated, but not that much)
- playing a card is basically: look at the cost, pay the resources, play the card
- turn structure is what it is : unmark, draw & resource, tactics, play, combat, play, discard (about the same as MTG)

You are quite right that the cities section is more complicated, however its the at the heart of the game. It introduces two things that are new:
- spacial depth, so creatures can move around from city to city, or to army
- tactical advantages (think of them as the MTG's equivalent of a permanent enchantment with activation cost)

Combat is actually the same as in MTG except, that the attacking player must choose a target (army or city), the defending player can defend with the city's residents and his/her army. The rest is business as usual.

That's about it. If you like we can meet for another game.
As I said before, learning a game is never done by reading the rules,
it is by playing with someone who already knows the rules. Then it goes fast.

ps. thanks for the feedback on the ARC cards, it is greatly appreciated.

Till the next game!

Kind regards,
Nico
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