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Vase
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Yo!

Post by Vase » Wed Jul 25, 2012 13:30

Hello WTactics people.

I want to be involved with game development. Here's a little background about myself to help you understand why:

I'm currently one year away from completing a Master's Degree in Jazz Performance. But...I don't really like jazz. I originally decided to study music in college because it seemed like the one thing I could learn about, and later have a career in, that wouldn't cause me to go insane from boredom.

But since jazz is lame, and since I have kids and consider supporting my family to be of paramount importance, and since I really really hate school (seriously), I don't think trying to become a working musician or a professor of jazz is a great plan. After months of soul searching, I've decided that the one thing I can do on a day-to-day basis that adds significant value to people is to create. I'm a creator. But I'm not good at creating things I don't care for (i.e. jazz music).

I have ALWAYS been a gamer though...at least since the first grade when I learned to play chess. So I want to create games. I settled on first attempting to create a CCG, (I know, crazy) and I have been enjoying wrestling with the various problems the CCG model and genre have which need solving.

So as of right now, my reasons for wanting to get involved are quite selfish :P I want to learn. I want to get experience working with a game that is still in the development stages, and I want to work with cool people and build a good network. Hopefully though, after getting involved, I'll love this project for what it is and I can be just one of the people that benefit from the entire experience...and I really need the experience since my only marketable skills are in music...and that is no way to support a family :)

Cheers! Can't wait to start learning about the game and providing some type of help.
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Re: Yo!

Post by Vase » Wed Jul 25, 2012 13:39

Oh, and also, I have good writing skills. I also consider myself to be very good at editing. And after reading only 3 paragraphs in the wiki, I'd like to know how I can begin putting those skills to good use.
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Re: Yo!

Post by snowdrop » Wed Jul 25, 2012 19:07

Hello Vase!

Of curiosity, how is your nick pronounced?

We're always happy to have a new face in here and hop you'll stay around.
I have ALWAYS been a gamer though...at least since the first grade when I learned to play chess. So I want to create games. I settled on first attempting to create a CCG, (I know, crazy) and I have been enjoying wrestling with the various problems the CCG model and genre have which need solving.


Yes, creating a CCG is crazy if you lack experience and even more so when starting out with game design, but then you've come to the right place - none of us have much or any experience of CCG creation since before, and it doesn't always matter either depending on what parts of the creation you'd want to be part of.

I myself had only one CCG attempt with me before I began on this project plus 10 years of MtG-playing. Eventhough some in our crew have been or are involved in other projects, including games, none of us claim to be "masters" - we learn as we go along. That said, non of us is clueless and most have field of expertise or interest that's guiding for the project (at least when the benevolent dictator gets their point and doesn't frakk up himself ; )

Which CCG:s have you played the most? What would you say their strengths and weaknesses are? And what's your experience of other games/boardgames?
So as of right now, my reasons for wanting to get involved are quite selfish I want to learn.
I'd say there could be a distinction between selfish and egoistical: While I believe our ego (self-interest) governs us and that we need it as a basis to have any interests at all and the motivation to do x (where x can be anything from "go drink water" to "go conquer the world") I wouldn't say the same about selfishness.

An example is that I help homeless children, and that I of course do it because it is in my self-interest - I do it for my ego (I want to, I maybe get a pleasure out of it, or maybe my religion says I should do it and I do it and feel closer to god, and so on). That said, my act, even though it is happening of self-interest, still helps those children and they benefit from that particular self-interest I have. It is a win-win.

Now imagine me as not only governed by my ego (self interest) but totally selfish: In that case I would not care at all if the children starved or whatever. My self-interest is constituted in such a way that it only has positive effects for me, alone, and negative (or no) effects for everyone around me. That would be fine definition of selfishness I think, and it is far from the same as being ego ;) So... it's ok.

In this case you're not really selfish, you're just ego (and that's a good thing, else you'd lack a will) :geek:
I want to learn. I want to get experience working with a game that is still in the development stages, and I want to work with cool people and build a good network.
It's like this:

1. We're cool. Just very obnoxious and not at all pk. :P We're also a meritocracy and seldom rush into anything.

2. Working on an indie game like ours will not bring you cash to support yourself, let alone your familiy.

3. Working on an open source project makes that even more true. ;) The game industry is super-competitive and it is super-hard to get a foot in.

4. That said, if you want knowledge, learn how to work with at the time being a handful of other people in an international group of individuals, experience the one million perils and tasks we have to overcome as a project, understand that it will in the end be very time consuming and zero-awarding until the game is actually released to the public and if even then, that it won't happen this year, then you have come to the right place ;)
and I really need the experience since my only marketable skills are in music...and that is no way to support a family
Once the game is released you are legally entitled (as is everyone on earth) to sell it for any sum you want and keep the earnings, should you decide to. I still don't expect that to make it possible to sustain a family, but experience and learning has to come from somewhere... so yeah, you could definitively benefit form being a part of the team. In the end it becomes what you make of it though - do nothing, learn nothing. Do stuff, learn it. Sadly, nothing comes cheap in life... :? I myself have spent pleny of cash on the art and zillion hours, and the same goes for many of the people around here that have been so kind to dedicate their parts of their spare time on the project...

Building good stuff takes time. But it's doable, and we are making progress. It is just 100 times slower than I'd ever guess :) since people have real lives to deal with.
Cheers! Can't wait to start learning about the game and providing some type of help.
http://wtactics.org/wiki/index.php?titl ... _Newcomers is a good starting point (and if not, please tell what lacks and we'll try to fix ; ) Also, you're welcome to the sunday meeting - please see wiki for details.
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Re: Yo!

Post by snowdrop » Wed Jul 25, 2012 19:09

Forgot: Age, location and OS? Have a headset or not (no, it's not a date... we do voice meetings if possible ; )

Edit: Forgot more: Yes, go ahead and edit whatever is wicked in wiki, but never change the intentions or logic of what's expressed. That is also extra true when it comes to editing the rules document. Please use same nick in Wiki as you do in here though.

Also, what are you most interested in doing?
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Vase
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Re: Yo!

Post by Vase » Thu Jul 26, 2012 18:04

Vase is pronounced "V-ace."

I'm definitely not wanting to work on this game to earn cash for myself. I just want to gain experience, make friends, and learn. Hopefully those things will allow me to be happy, have fun, and set myself up for some financial success in the future.

I'm 30 years old and I live in Oklahoma City, USA. OS....as in operating system? I'm running a Mac with Lion.

No, I don't have a headset. But I suppose I can get one if I want to participate in those meetings. However, I have other commitments on Sundays right now that will keep me from participating in anything on that day.

About editing: don't worry, I won't change the idea being expressed. If I did, it wouldn't be good editing.

I'm most interested in editing, play testing, and helping to develop rules. One of my biggest strengths is my creativity. I'm an ideas guy, if you know what I mean.

I'll start doing some homework by acquainting myself with this game. Then I'll put on my wordsmith cap and set my chisel and hammer to the wikis. ;)
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Re: Yo!

Post by snowdrop » Thu Jul 26, 2012 18:06

Ah, sounds great. Just shout if you need help or have questions (many will pop up...).. but do so in new threads :P

Catch you later!
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Re: Yo!

Post by Vase » Fri Jul 27, 2012 04:13

P.S. Since you asked and I forgot to reply:

I have mostly played the Star Wars CCG (by Decipher) and the Lord of the Rings LCG (Fantasy Flight). I have dabbled in Magic and the Lord of the Rings CCG (by Decipher). I play a bit of Pokemon with my daughter. I have recently decided to conduct some research on CCGs that are in the same vein as the one I am currently designing. To begin the process I just picked up a couple of starters for Dixie (by Columbia Games, 1994), and I'm working on getting WarCry (Sabertooth). Next on the list are Dark Millennium, Horus Heresy (both by Sabertooth), Chaotic (4Kids Entertainment), and Warlord: Saga of the Storm (by Alderac Entertainment).

For now I'll just comment on the first two I listed.

SW:CCG's major weakness is power creep. Without the mega-powerful rare cards, a player has no chance of being competitive. Last time I played, the competitive players had come to a consensus on several decks which they defined as Tier 1, Tier 2, etc. based on how likely they were to win. If you want to get in the game today, or if you want to return to it, you can't just build a deck anymore. You have to get one of those decks. I had to essentially pony up the $$$ necessary for all 60 cards in each of the two decks I built because none of the 1500 or so cards I had were competitive. After I built those decks, I was kinda stuck with having to master their style of play whether I liked it or not...unless I wanted to pay for another deck.

Also, the ability to quickly cycle cards through the decks while frequently getting a chance to view them allows a player to count cards. This is great for ultra competitive players. But there was so much possibility for deck control that if you weren't one of those guys that can count cards, you couldn't be competitive. So maybe not quite enough randomness and chance.

The game has several strengths though: an effective mechanic that rewards active play while penalizing passive play; an elegant design that needs no play mats, dice, counters, etc.; and of course, the game's setting coupled with the game's ability to recreate epic cinematic scenes from the movies (before the power creep, this was TONS of fun).

The LotR:LCG is cool because of the new LCG concept. However, each expansion pack retails for $15 (!!!) and they are released monthly. So keeping up with this game is a major cash burn. Cool concept, but poor way to execute it IMO.

In the same way, the solo/co-op play style is both cool and a drag. Cool because it let's people with no friends to game with (like me) play alone, or play cooperatively with my wife...who won't every play against me. However, it quickly becomes boring and pales compared to head-to-head play. It either turns into math, or there is too much chance so deck construction counts for nothing, or players will sit and deal out cards to play 30, 40, 50 or more games in a row to get an unbeatable score. What a chore.

One great mechanic is for each scenario to have its own winning conditions. These are described on a few cards which are double-sided and kept on the table at all times. When one objective is met, the card is flipped over to reveal the next objective, while simultaneously triggering actions and effects. Really cool idea IMO.

I've also played tons of Chess and quite a bit of Warhammer and Warmachine. I love Axis & Allies (the original version). I was practically addicted to Starcraft so I threw away my discs and uninstalled the software...it doesn't run on Lion anyway :) (That game had such great diversity but was also so well balanced that it never got old. The bottleneck became a player's ability to memorize keybindings and dominate the keyboard...which required hundreds of hours of practice...ick). Anyone ever played VGA Planets? That game rules.

Blah blah blah. :D
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Re: Yo!

Post by snowdrop » Sat Jul 28, 2012 18:40

I'm most interested in editing, play testing, and helping to develop rules. One of my biggest strengths is my creativity. I'm an ideas guy, /../
I'll start doing some homework by acquainting myself with this game. Then I'll put on my wordsmith cap and set my chisel and hammer to the wikis.
Sounds great. :) As with all things in this project, it become what you make of it: Do nothing, and nothing gets done, and vice versa.

When it comes to editing it's mainly the wiki that need love right now and until playtesting starts.

Play testing help will be needed, heaps of it. That's last this year, preferably now when autumn comes if we can make it. Idea is to playtest Gaia & Red Banner and make sure we have nailed them + rules by the end of the year. Playtesting will be done using LackeyCCG until somebody shows me a better alternative, and Mattaiyah is handling the module for Lackey so we can see/use all the cards we'll playtest.

All those cards will be assembled in Scribus and then exported into JPG:s to then be included in Lackey. I'm currently working on that in Scribus, putting in the Gaians first.

Develop rules: Ideas are always welcome, but odds are nothing gigantic will change before playtesting, and whatever is changed will be so because it's broken or not thrilling enough (which is almost the same thing as being broken... ; ) Our (my) problem has been that we have spent too much time debating instead of playtesting :P and try to prove our points. :D

As for creativity - you can already, as soon as you have grasped the suggested rules for playtesting in wiki (ORC), start inventing new mechanics and cards and post in forum. About 10% - 30% of what we have ever posted will end up being pretty good stuff sooner or later.
SW:CCG's major weakness is power creep. Without the mega-powerful rare cards, a player has no chance of being competitive
Some (many?) companies have it in there intentionally to "force" players to buy new cards. It's bad design since it breaks the game and makes the card not work well with each other. Usually the designers are aware of it or will become so fast since it is noticable pretty early on. Company ca then let them react or force them to ignore reason.

In WT we have no reasons to introduce powercreep. If we ever have it then it's considered a bug that should be corrected. Part of the reason is it makes even less sense in our game as all have all cards, while powercreeping was, in part, reduced slightly by rarity factor in collectible games.

Thing is that PC is bad design for another reason as well: It testifies about lack of design creativity. Creating new cards shouldnt be about just reprinting existing ones wit new fluff and higher numbers.
The game has several strengths though: an effective mechanic that rewards active play while penalizing passive play; an elegant design that needs no play mats, dice, counters, etc.; and of course, the game's setting coupled with the game's ability to recreate epic cinematic scenes from the movies (before the power creep, this was TONS of fun).
Could you sum that up in more detail in a new thread, coupled with 2-3 exampels of each thing?Sounds great, and I have heard much good about that game before as well. I haven't played it myself though.

One great mechanic is for each scenario to have its own winning conditions. These are described on a few cards which are double-sided and kept on the table at all times. When one objective is met, the card is flipped over to reveal the next objective, while simultaneously triggering actions and effects. Really cool idea IMO.
Same as above: Post a thread, giving 3 examples of such cards that really differ. How many such win-conditions ("missions") are there, and how much can they vary, logically? (Example: I don't consider kill x being different from kill y and heal z... I'd still say they they're more or less the same mission)
The bottleneck became a player's ability to memorize keybindings and dominate the keyboard...which required hundreds of hours of practice...ick). Anyone ever played VGA Planets? That game rules.
I feel the same away about SC: I like the theme, was an old SC player and also bought SC2, but I almost enjoy it more against CPU or campaign than against kids that have 500 APM and keep playing it 5 days a week. SC is too light on strategy for my taste, hence I began playing "Battle for Wesnoth" - I can recommend it, it's turn-based, free, heavier on startegy without being complex, and should run on your system with ease.
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