Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

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ngoeminne
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by ngoeminne » Mon Apr 11, 2016 23:35

Hello all,

I've created an alternative rule set and put it on the wiki. I called it the 'Alternative Rules Concept (ARC)', but snowdrop convinced me I should find a better name, so I came up with the 'Awesome Rules Concept' keeping the ARC. It builds upon a lot of the discussions here, and I've taken ideas from just about everyone.

The goals I set out for this rule set were:
- solution to the multi-currency/multi-factions play
- as slimmed down as possible
- as feature complete as possible
- consistency (moving, marking,...)
- advanced tactics and gameplay with multiple win/lose paths
- spacial component

Comparing to the ORC, I dropped some things, like assigning, different marking costs, the dual move/attack phase, the upkeep phase (is actually a card ability), a different way of getting the tactical advantage or victory points in the tactical phase,...

I replaced the regions, for cities, and allowed multiple in play,
and added a player avatar card (just for fun)

http://wtactics.org/wiki/index.php?titl ... es_Concept

Happy reading, (if you are up for it)
Kind regards,
Nico
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Peter
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 20:13
Location: Germany

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by Peter » Sat Apr 16, 2016 23:40

I've taken Your ARC and boiled them down even a bit more.

Before I show them I have a question:
When the player draws a creature card from the main deck, it has gold costs to put them in army or city.
But where go drawn creatures that aren't paid?

EDIT: Can I have write access to a single wiki page so I can publish my ruleset? It is named City-Fight Rules Concept (CRC).
Kind regards and happy coding :)
ngoeminne
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by ngoeminne » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:14

Thanks Peter to have a look.
Peter wrote:I've taken Your ARC and boiled them down even a bit more.
Great! I'm all ears :-)
Peter wrote: Before I show them I have a question:
When the player draws a creature card from the main deck, it has gold costs to put them in army or city.
But where go drawn creatures that aren't paid?
You draw cards to your hand, then you have the option to play it by paying the gold cost.
You can also keep them and play them on your next turn. However at the end of your turn,
you must put all cards above 7 in your hand, to your graveyard.
Peter wrote: EDIT: Can I have write access to a single wiki page so I can publish my ruleset? It is named City-Fight Rules Concept (CRC).
Sure, I'll take it up with snowdrop, cause I'm not sure I can technically give it.
Feel free to put it up somewhere else for now, so I can read them, or mail them to me nicogoeminne [] gmail com

Kind regards,
Nico
Pistos
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 13:04

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by Pistos » Wed Aug 10, 2016 02:08

Nico:

I've finished my first round of edits over the whole ARC wiki page (http://wtactics.org/wiki/index.php?titl ... es_Concept). As we discussed in IRC, I added several more "Unclear" indicators throughout, particularly in the Combat rules.
different wording.
ngoeminne
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by ngoeminne » Wed Aug 10, 2016 17:08

Hi Pistos,

I went trough them, and corrected some small things. I also tried to explain the unclear things you found. All in all I'm quite happy how they are described.

Give me a node if you'd like to start working on the cards. First couple of edits there we could/should do together.

Kind regards,
Nico
Clemens
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Location: Austria

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by Clemens » Tue Oct 25, 2016 14:48

After reading the Rules (and Cards) I have come up with a few unclear areas.
First I am not quite sure how City advantages work:
1. Are they mandatory? For example can I skip the Level 3 Advantage of Lobotomized Library and only use the Level 7 advantage to draw a card? I would assume I could not, but I am generally unsure about event based advantages (that happen one time) in contrast to static ones, because the rules explain them as always active (and "draw a card until this citys devotion drops" seems kind of nonsensial).
2. Currently the rules describe the advantage taking durching the tactics phase as a phase during which I can mark creatures for devotion, rather than marking them all at once at for example the beginning of the phase. So it should be possible to use for example Spirit Trees' Level 4 advantage to bring a creature into play as it's resident and then mark that creature for a further advantage. Is that intentional? I think there should be a clarification into one or the other direction.

Secondly there is a concept that appears on the cards but is not yet really handled by the rules, and that is preventing something from dying. Currently Falconer and Botanist can prevent a creature from dying, but I haven't found a clarification what that means. What if I prevent it from dying and then it gets killed again by an effect? What if it has for example 5 Def, my opponent Deadly Shocks it, which resolves, then Deadly Shocks it again, in response I prevent it from dying and then it gets deadly Shocket later that turn? Is it protected until end of turn or beyond that? When do I have to prevent it from dying, in response to it dying or preventively? If it is in Response, does the creature not die, even if it should, as long as it could be prevented? Within the current rules I can't find answers to those questions.
ngoeminne
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Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by ngoeminne » Wed Oct 26, 2016 19:05

Hi Clemens,

That's why I like to have MTG players on board. Already looking for someway to exploit the rules :-)
Clemens wrote:After reading the Rules (and Cards) I have come up with a few unclear areas.
First I am not quite sure how City advantages work:
1. Are they mandatory? For example can I skip the Level 3 Advantage of Lobotomized Library and only use the Level 7 advantage to draw a card? I would assume I could not, but I am generally unsure about event based advantages (that happen one time) in contrast to static ones, because the rules explain them as always active (and "draw a card until this citys devotion drops" seems kind of nonsensial).
The effects triggered by reaching a level are meant to be mandatory. Reaching the level acts as a the trigger and can only be achieved once during the tactics phase. The effect last until the player's next tactics phase. It disappears when the city is destroyed. Of course, single effects only happen once (draw card, discard card, etc...)
Clemens wrote: 2. Currently the rules describe the advantage taking during the tactics phase as a phase during which I can mark creatures for devotion, rather than marking them all at once at for example the beginning of the phase.
Yes, we've always played it like that. (cf. declaring attackers). So it is all at once.
That way an opponent can try to counteract you gaining an advantage.

E.G. I select creature A, B, C for devotion in a city. Together they contribute 7 loyalty marks,
enough to trigger some City's level 6 advantage.
In reaction to that the opponent could kill of creature B with two loyalty marks, hence the total sum of loyalty marks drops to 5 and the advantage would not be triggered. Cards B and C would still have to be marked.
Clemens wrote: So it should be possible to use for example Spirit Trees' Level 4 advantage to bring a creature into play as it's resident and then mark that creature for a further advantage. Is that intentional? I think there should be a clarification into one or the other direction.
No, at least we haven't playtested it like that. Could be a nice approach. For now I'd go for the all at once. (with declaring, and event play possible)
Clemens wrote: Secondly there is a concept that appears on the cards but is not yet really handled by the rules, and that is preventing something from dying. Currently Falconer and Botanist can prevent a creature from dying, but I haven't found a clarification what that means. What if I prevent it from dying and then it gets killed again by an effect? What if it has for example 5 Def, my opponent Deadly Shocks it, which resolves, then Deadly Shocks it again, in response I prevent it from dying and then it gets deadly Shocket later that turn? Is it protected until end of turn or beyond that? When do I have to prevent it from dying, in response to it dying or preventively? If it is in Response, does the creature not die, even if it should, as long as it could be prevented? Within the current rules I can't find answers to those questions.
Good point. Although it shouldn't be in the rules, but in the abilities list.
It was meant to be (and was up to now played) like the MTG regenerate.

Does that answer your questions?

Thanks for the useful input.
Kind regards,
Nico
Clemens
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 21:03
Location: Austria

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by Clemens » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:37

Hey Nico,

thanks for the answers. It's now clearer to me. But I still have questions.
ngoeminne wrote:E.G. I select creature A, B, C for devotion in a city. Together they contribute 7 loyalty marks,
enough to trigger some City's level 6 advantage.
In reaction to that the opponent could kill of creature B with two loyalty marks, hence the total sum of loyalty marks drops to 5 and the advantage would not be triggered. Cards B and C would still have to be marked.
Does the active player choose the trigger order of the cities, or is it determined by the order of the advantages? Because it can make a difference: Lobotomized Library's first two advantages are discard and card draw. If I have no cards in hand and draw first, I end up with still no cards in hand. If I can explicitly choose the order myself it would provide some tactical possibilities in some situations.
ngoeminne wrote:It was meant to be (and was up to now played) like the MTG regenerate.
Thank you, that is what I was assuming. But just assuming things based on another game's rules felt like the wrong approach. Because even in MtG terminology there are variants that could have been used, like indestructible or damage prevention.
ngoeminne
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Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by ngoeminne » Thu Oct 27, 2016 15:08

Hi Clemens,
Does the active player choose the trigger order of the cities, or is it determined by the order of the advantages? Because it can make a difference: Lobotomized Library's first two advantages are discard and card draw. If I have no cards in hand and draw first, I end up with still no cards in hand. If I can explicitly choose the order myself it would provide some tactical possibilities in some situations.
The order of the effects within a city is fixed, and mandatory, first the lowest level triggers, and so upward. There still could be some unexpected results, as in our prev example, the active player might have wanted to reach level 7 (and gain both the city's level 3 and level 7 advantage), but after declaration of the devoted creatures, the opponent could interfere so that the city only reaches level 5.
The city's level 3 effect still happens and is mandatory. In the case of the "lob lib", each player would still have to discard two cards, however the active player could not enjoy the level 7 card draw.

That being said, the active player choose the order of the cities. E.g. First Lobotomized Library, then Nirwana of the Undead, ...
Just assuming things based on another game's rules felt like the wrong approach.
Well that's true, but we kind of need some common ground to start from. And often it is MTG.
Even the 'official rulings' don't always make sense. That's the thing with complex ccg's. And that is also why it is fun, sometimes you debate, and agree upon stuff.

The ARC together with the Abilities list set a general framework for playing the game. And it should be sufficient to play, and where it lacks clarity, players could agree on the given situation. As it occurs often a default/de facto rule will surface. That we can add later, either in the core rule set, the abilities list, or on the card itself. Luckly we can change the card's or have official rulings afterwards. Flawed cards can be changed (not so in MTG, where they need to ban them).

Kind regards,
Nico
ngoeminne
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Awesome Rule Concept (ARC)

Post by ngoeminne » Fri Oct 28, 2016 08:01

Hi Clemens, Pistos,

I've updated the cities advantages rules to clarify the issues raised in this thread.
Pistos, feel free to translate my gibberish to plain english :-)

Kind regards,
Nico
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