Deck for House of Nobles

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Clemens
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 21:03
Location: Austria

Deck for House of Nobles

Post by Clemens » Sat Oct 29, 2016 17:51

As promised I tried creating a deck for the House of Nobles. Since didn't have the possibility to playtest yet, it will propably be horribly unbalanced, but I hope it can be a starting point.
I wanted to expand the current stock of cards to other possible win conditions right away, so I created a mill deck (for everyone not familiar with MtG, a mill deck tries to remove cards from the opponents deck until he has an empty deck and is killed by the rules). I tried a balance between cards that mill and cards that somewhat hinder the opponent and delay him, allowing the mill plan to do its thing.

So here is the list I came up with (new cards are explained below):

3 Residence of Administration (the mill city. I wanted the possibility for more mill, so I went away from the classic just 3 cities template)
1 Tomb of Nobles
1 Fair Trading Port

3 Diplomatic Pact
3 Corrupt Archivist
3 Esteemed Duelist
3 Banish
3 Benevolent Baron
3 Binding Contract
3 Smuggler
3 City council
3 Carpe Diem
3 Return to Sender
3 Recession
2 Merchant Ship
2 Reliable Guard

Following are the new cards I came up with, or the ones I would change from existing ones (because the previous discussion of these cards referred to them as obsolete or outdated). The things I had the most problems with were the creature names and the costs. The latter can be adapted in the course of development. The names however could/should be changed right away. I chose them because I think they illustrate the flavor of the creatures, but like they are now they contradict the LLD, because they are not entirely functional (mostly because of the many adjectives). I am open to suggestions. Anyway, here are the cards:

Residence of Administration
6-3
City
Level 5: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
Level 6: Draw a card.
Level 8: Whenever a creature attacks this city it doesn't unmark during it's controllers next unmark phase.

Corrupt Archivist
3-2
Creature - Human
Whenever I am marked put the top card of each players deck into his/her graveyard.
1/3

Esteemed Duelist
2-1
Creature - Human
Blood Vengeance
4: I gain First Strike until end of turn.
1/1

Benevolent Baron
4-1
Creature - Human
When I come into play, each player draws a card.
When I leave play, each player draws a card.
2/3

Smuggler
3-2
Creature - Human
M: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
3: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
1/2

Reliable Guard
4-1
Creature - Dwarf
Bodyguard 3
3/3

Diplomatic Pact
3-2
Creature Enchantment
When I come into play choose a city you control.
As long as target creature is marked, its loyalty counts towards the chosen city's devotion. (Advantages still trigger only in your tactics phase.)

Banish
5-3
Magic
Remove target creature from the game.

Binding Contract
2-1
Creature Enchantment
Whenever target creature is marked mark all other creatures in the same city or army.

Recession (modified from an earlier Recession, which was an Enchantment)
4-2
Event
Choose one: Target player can't draw cards this turn or target player can't play resource cards this turn.


So I hope his inspires you, or that some of these could even see play. Also if that maybe is the complete wrong direction I would ask you to inform me, as I am still just trying to figure the factions and the card creation process out.
ngoeminne
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Deck for House of Nobles

Post by ngoeminne » Mon Oct 31, 2016 09:16

Hi Clemens,
Clemens wrote:As promised I tried creating a deck for the House of Nobles. Since didn't have the possibility to playtest yet, it will propably be horribly unbalanced, but I hope it can be a starting point.
I wanted to expand the current stock of cards to other possible win conditions right away, so I created a mill deck (for everyone not familiar with MtG, a mill deck tries to remove cards from the opponents deck until he has an empty deck and is killed by the rules). I tried a balance between cards that mill and cards that somewhat hinder the opponent and delay him, allowing the mill plan to do its thing.
I really, really like the idea of a mill deck as a starter for the HoN, it does seem something for that faction. The deck has a strategy that fits well with the ARC. During a normal game, 70 to 80 % of the cards get drawn. Since our decks are 45 (3 cities + 42 in deck), milling them would make sense.

So a big big plus for the strategy (far better then my attempt in resource controlling in the 'economics' deck.
Clemens wrote: So here is the list I came up with (new cards are explained below):

3 Residence of Administration (the mill city. I wanted the possibility for more mill, so I went away from the classic just 3 cities template)
1 Tomb of Nobles
1 Fair Trading Port

3 Diplomatic Pact
3 Corrupt Archivist
3 Esteemed Duelist
3 Banish
3 Benevolent Baron
3 Binding Contract
3 Smuggler
3 City council
3 Carpe Diem
3 Return to Sender
3 Recession
2 Merchant Ship
2 Reliable Guard
First of all, I do like the new card name's, and they fit in the theme really well. My favorite 'Benevolent Baron', hehe. About the mill city 'Residence of Administration' in the ARC they cities were meant to be unique (but I'm not sure if it is stated like that in the rules). Also I'm not sure if it should be unique in play or unique in deck. I do understand that it's the central card in the strategy, but maybe you could think of others (e.g. players must sacrifice creature/or mill cards)

Clemens wrote: Following are the new cards I came up with, or the ones I would change from existing ones (because the previous discussion of these cards referred to them as obsolete or outdated). The things I had the most problems with were the creature names and the costs. The latter can be adapted in the course of development. The names however could/should be changed right away. I chose them because I think they illustrate the flavor of the creatures, but like they are now they contradict the LLD, because they are not entirely functional (mostly because of the many adjectives). I am open to suggestions.
The game statistics (costs, levels, loyalty marks) etc are indeed hard to get right. And they do often change during playtest. They need to be balanced out against other cards, the deck itself, and other decks. Then again, not to balanced or all decks will be roughly equally strong. It's a dev's nightmare. Don't worry about it for now.

As for the card names, the adjectives sometimes make them better. The discussion here should be, do we use generic names like 'baron', 'ship', ... or do we use real names like 'Baron Le Marque'. I'm not sure. And don't worry about the LDD to much, it's more of a guide then a rule book.
Clemens wrote: Anyway, here are the cards:

Residence of Administration
6-3
City
Level 5: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
Level 6: Draw a card.
Level 8: Whenever a creature attacks this city it doesn't unmark during it's controllers next unmark phase.
Great city card, I'd keep the effects in line:
- level 5 : mill
- level 6 : draw
- level 8 : mill some more

Another one could be (use with caution):
- level A: mill,
- level B: return creature to top of deck
- level C: mill

As I explained, since the effects are on the event stack in reverse order, you could add event cards that does B instead. Effectively killing a creature. (you could do play=>deck, hand=>deck cards)
Clemens wrote: Corrupt Archivist
3-2
Creature - Human
Whenever I am marked put the top card of each players deck into his/her graveyard.
1/3
Each => target player (each seems a bit strong here, should be a cities advantage then)
Clemens wrote: Esteemed Duelist
2-1
Creature - Human
Blood Vengeance
4: I gain First Strike until end of turn.
1/1
I like the name 'Duelist', to get more into character: when having a duel there should be something at steak. An example: 'When I deal damage', both players reveal their top card and compare the loyalty marks of the cards, the highest card is put in hand, the lowest card is discarded.

I'm not such a fan of triggered abilities if they are basic, (flying, first strike, veteran,....), in a larger card pool, you'll just take the same variant that already has it.
Clemens wrote: Benevolent Baron
4-1
Creature - Human
When I come into play, each player draws a card.
When I leave play, each player draws a card.
2/3
Cool it's benevolent in deed. Card draw is good, maybe it could be asymmetric, in play => draw
leave play => mil
Clemens wrote: Smuggler
3-2
Creature - Human
M: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
3: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
1/2
Great basic card, however the two abilities are the same (I understand that the more resources you get the faster you can mill). However a smuggler, should smuggle (peak, look at the surroundings).
So here's my idea for the Mark ability: Look at the top card of target players deck (building a combo with the suggested dualist?)
Clemens wrote: Reliable Guard
4-1
Creature - Dwarf
Bodyguard 3
Basic card, good to have some in there (if only for getting the cities levels)
Clemens wrote:3/3
Diplomatic Pact
3-2
Creature Enchantment
When I come into play choose a city you control.
As long as target creature is marked, its loyalty counts towards the chosen city's devotion. (Advantages still trigger only in your tactics phase.)
Ok, do I get it right if you'd play this enchantment on an opponent's creature?
If so, I'm not sure the prerequist of 'marked' is needed, then again it might be to strong without it.
(an ideal case for playtesting)
Clemens wrote: Banish
5-3
Magic
Remove target creature from the game.
Hehe, the HoN variant of 'swords'. Killing of a creature out of the blue is maybe not for our HoN,
But I do understand the need for defense against creatures. I see it's a magic card, so it's in your own turn. We'd might use a variant as well, that is an event and puts it on top of the deck.
Clemens wrote:
Binding Contract
2-1
Creature Enchantment
Whenever target creature is marked mark all other creatures in the same city or army.
No comments.
Clemens wrote:
Recession (modified from an earlier Recession, which was an Enchantment)
4-2
Event
Choose one: Target player can't draw cards this turn or target player can't play resource cards this turn.
In combo with more cards draw, that would lead you to card advantage, I like it, but I'm not sure how it will turn out.
Clemens wrote:
So I hope his inspires you, or that some of these could even see play. Also if that maybe is the complete wrong direction I would ask you to inform me, as I am still just trying to figure the factions and the card creation process out.
As I said I feel that it is very solid starting point. The strategy would work well. I'd think we could actually aim for this deck to be the next one, since the other two are nearing completion. Your deck needs a title, and we should start putting them in the card database.

Good work. Kind regards,
Nico
Clemens
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 21:03
Location: Austria

Re: Deck for House of Nobles

Post by Clemens » Tue Nov 01, 2016 09:03

ngoeminne wrote:About the mill city 'Residence of Administration' in the ARC they cities were meant to be unique (but I'm not sure if it is stated like that in the rules). Also I'm not sure if it should be unique in play or unique in deck. I do understand that it's the central card in the strategy, but maybe you could think of others (e.g. players must sacrifice creature/or mill cards)
Current deckbuilding rules of the ARC don't reference cities as unique. It says at least three cities (which implies more than three are ok), and each card no more than three times. So that's why I wanted to try it like that.
ngoeminne wrote:
Clemens wrote: Anyway, here are the cards:

Residence of Administration
6-3
City
Level 5: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
Level 6: Draw a card.
Level 8: Whenever a creature attacks this city it doesn't unmark during it's controllers next unmark phase.
Great city card, I'd keep the effects in line:
- level 5 : mill
- level 6 : draw
- level 8 : mill some more

Another one could be (use with caution):
- level A: mill,
- level B: return creature to top of deck
- level C: mill

As I explained, since the effects are on the event stack in reverse order, you could add event cards that does B instead. Effectively killing a creature. (you could do play=>deck, hand=>deck cards)
My intention was to do a city that flavorfully represents the stereotypes of bureaucracy, where files get lost (Level 5), where you get something extra, if you know the right guy (Level 6), and where you have to wait for a really long time, if you need to go there (Level 8). But I get the point that it should propably be more streamlined in its mechanics.
ngoeminne wrote:
Clemens wrote: Corrupt Archivist
3-2
Creature - Human
Whenever I am marked put the top card of each players deck into his/her graveyard.
1/3
Each => target player (each seems a bit strong here, should be a cities advantage then)
Do you really think, it is to strong like that? Each player includes the Archivist's controller. I wanted it to be a card that works well with the mill city, gives the deck a possibility to win even against multiple opponents (which is a little harder for mill decks), but that also gives you as a player the choice if you even want to use it, since it even mills yourself. That drawback I intended, so the card's cost could be kept low. But maybe I wanted to do too many things with that card. I'll definitely test both versions.
ngoeminne wrote:
Clemens wrote: Esteemed Duelist
2-1
Creature - Human
Blood Vengeance
4: I gain First Strike until end of turn.
1/1
I like the name 'Duelist', to get more into character: when having a duel there should be something at steak. An example: 'When I deal damage', both players reveal their top card and compare the loyalty marks of the cards, the highest card is put in hand, the lowest card is discarded.

I'm not such a fan of triggered abilities if they are basic, (flying, first strike, veteran,....), in a larger card pool, you'll just take the same variant that already has it.
Hm, I get your point, but I think it should be something other than loyalty comparison, unless House of Nobles' thing would be really high loyalty. We'll think of something.
Did you mean activated abilities? I'm confused. Well the activated first strike is there to give the card some advantage, if you get it right with the blood vengeance, but to make the card itself rather cheap, since it's not that good if you play it without the blood vengeance.
ngoeminne wrote:
Clemens wrote: Benevolent Baron
4-1
Creature - Human
When I come into play, each player draws a card.
When I leave play, each player draws a card.
2/3
Cool it's benevolent in deed. Card draw is good, maybe it could be asymmetric, in play => draw
leave play => mil
I'm happy you like the flavor. In the first draft I wanted it to draw everyone two cards upon entering, but then I wanted to split it up. So I will try it with your proposed asymmetry as well as merging the triggers back into one.
ngoeminne wrote:
Clemens wrote: Smuggler
3-2
Creature - Human
M: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
3: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
1/2
Great basic card, however the two abilities are the same (I understand that the more resources you get the faster you can mill). However a smuggler, should smuggle (peak, look at the surroundings).
So here's my idea for the Mark ability: Look at the top card of target players deck (building a combo with the suggested dualist?)
That seems good, yes. I even thought of giving him the ability of "Lurking Informant" (a MtG Card). But as you proposed it it would be the Informant's ability split into two abilities, which I like even better.
ngoeminne wrote:
Clemens wrote:3/3
Diplomatic Pact
3-2
Creature Enchantment
When I come into play choose a city you control.
As long as target creature is marked, its loyalty counts towards the chosen city's devotion. (Advantages still trigger only in your tactics phase.)
Ok, do I get it right if you'd play this enchantment on an opponent's creature?
If so, I'm not sure the prerequist of 'marked' is needed, then again it might be to strong without it.
(an ideal case for playtesting)
Yes, it should enchant an opponent's creature. The reason of the marked prerequisite is to give your opponent a choice. Ether he allows you to get your advantage or he doesn't use his creature. With the right combination of creature city this would hopefully be really annoying. So this enchantments intent is not only to get more loyalty, it's should also potentially slow down your opponent a little.
ngoeminne wrote:
Clemens wrote: Banish
5-3
Magic
Remove target creature from the game.
Hehe, the HoN variant of 'swords'. Killing of a creature out of the blue is maybe not for our HoN,
But I do understand the need for defense against creatures. I see it's a magic card, so it's in your own turn. We'd might use a variant as well, that is an event and puts it on top of the deck.
The event card you propose is exactly "Return to Sender" (which is also in the deck list). I created it because I got the feeling HoN is not only blueish but blue-whiteish, so I tried to include a white effect. I'll maybe look for something to replace this card.
ngoeminne
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Deck for House of Nobles

Post by ngoeminne » Sat Nov 05, 2016 13:08

Hi Clemens
Clemens wrote: Current deckbuilding rules of the ARC don't reference cities as unique. It says at least three cities (which implies more than three are ok), and each card no more than three times. So that's why I wanted to try it like that.
That's clearly lacking then, the idea was that they are unique, (and key cards to your deck) and that they start in play (but could be in deck as well). I was even think that if you and your opponent have the same city card, it would be actually shared, that is all creatures in the two identical cities would be in the single city. Effects that target residents, would effect both your as your opponent's residents. The city's level advantages would trigger twice (during your tactics turn, and the opponents tactics turn), however if the city receives damage it would be permanent (hence you could attack a shared city with your army). Nothing in the card's text or the rules is contradicting this shared city idea.
Clemens wrote:Corrupt Archivist => Do you really think, it is to strong like that? Each player includes the Archivist's controller. I wanted it to be a card that works well with the mill city, gives the deck a possibility to win even against multiple opponents (which is a little harder for mill decks), but that also gives you as a player the choice if you even want to use it, since it even mills yourself. That drawback I intended, so the card's cost could be kept low. But maybe I wanted to do too many things with that card. I'll definitely test both versions.
Maybe not to strong, just prefer to have 'each player' / 'each creature' stuff in city advantages, this is more a guideline anyway. So you could definitely go with 'each' :-)
Clemens wrote:Esteemed Duelist=> Hm, I get your point, but I think it should be something other than loyalty comparison, unless House of Nobles' thing would be really high loyalty. We'll think of something.
Did you mean activated abilities? I'm confused. Well the activated first strike is there to give the card some advantage, if you get it right with the blood vengeance, but to make the card itself rather cheap, since it's not that good if you play it without the blood vengeance.
Well you're right, but then again, there isn't much variation in loyalty marks anyway (0 to 3). That's intentionally. I do like the concept of the duel though. About your other remark, I did mean activated abilities. If they are basic ones (e.g. things that are on the abilities list, like first strike, flying, ...) they should just be there, and not activated. The activated abilities should do 'rare' stuff, such as the 'duel'.
Clemens wrote:Banish => The event card you propose is exactly "Return to Sender" (which is also in the deck list). I created it because I got the feeling HoN is not only blueish but blue-whiteish, so I tried to include a white effect. I'll maybe look for something to replace this card.
Oh crap, yes, your entirely right. That's the 'return to sender' card. Anyway I'm not quite sure on the Banish card, since it kills of things out of the ... hehe... blue :-) That should be somthing for dark legion, or red banner. I do understand the HoN need for removing the threat of creatures. But it should be game changing when the deck does that move. What about:

Bribe
Enchantment
4-2
Gain control of target creature and put it in your army. At the beginning of your turn put a -1/-1 counter on it.

There 'upkeep' is there to limit the time frame you have control. Other variants could be, to sac one/two resources, sac a creature, mark resources, ... Ehm, maybe sac/mark resources would be more in line with the bribe (if you stop paying the bribe stops)

Anyway, feel free to add the cards to our db, and change the current ones.

Btw, I just updated the HoN creature and event templates to be more in line with the gaian, red banner and dark legion templates. (bigger loyalty marks, darker background and yellow text for creatures/cities, and lighter/bluish background for events/magic/enchantments).

Kind regards,
Nico
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snowdrop
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Re: Deck for House of Nobles

Post by snowdrop » Sun Nov 06, 2016 00:20

Milling deck is indeed cool and nice for HoN flavour.
Nice work here....

Input after reading original post + second one is that concept could work and most of the cards seem to fit the theme:
Corrupt Archivist
3-2
Creature - Human
Whenever I am marked put the top card of each players deck into his/her graveyard.
1/3


If 3 is the gold cost, then I'd say this is too powerfull for that low price, even with the self-punishing mechanic (which is great by the way, the way of Black MtG)




Smuggler
3-2
Creature - Human
M: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
3: Target player puts the top card of his/her deck into his/her graveyard.
1/2

Same + agree with ng on that one...

"do we use generic names like 'baron', 'ship', ... or do we use real names like 'Baron Le Marque'. I'm not sure"
In ORC I'll always try to go with personal names for "special creatures" while trying to go general/functional for rest. Just a matter of taste´really and doesn't matter much. Should be kept coherent within a ruleset.
Clemens
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 21:03
Location: Austria

Re: Deck for House of Nobles

Post by Clemens » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:57

Thanks again for the feedback.

I finally found the time to put it all in the card database, and I also created a deck, which I called "Toll of Time". I implemented most of the suggested changes. I'm still not quite shure how to handle the Duelist, I think I have to experiment with different mechanics when playtesting this card.
ngoeminne
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 15:34

Re: Deck for House of Nobles

Post by ngoeminne » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:37

Hi Clemens,

You actually put them in :-)
That's great, how did you like/feel the generation tool?
I know the layouting is still a bit clumsy, but it will have to do for now.

Btw, HoN templates are not final, especially the creature/city templates.

Happy milling in the 'Toll of Time'.

Kind regards,
Nico
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