Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

[The Other]

I had a look at the (brief) 'Story' section, and the Shadowguild immediately jumped out at me as (A) needing a lot of improvement, and (B) having a lot of potential to do something really interesting.
There are some very cool, original ideas in this game/setting - I love the orcish socialists and utilitarian elves! - and the description of the Shadowguild, as it currently stands, seems to somewhat detract from that as it is so lacking in real originality. So...

First I would propose a change of name - this is purely a matter of personal taste, but to me 'Shadowguild' sounds a bit silly. I suggest 'The Hidden', referring to the under-the-radar nature of the factions' activities and organization. That said, if majority opinion is in favour of keeping the current name, I am perfectly happy to let it stand.

As soon as anybody mentions dark magic (or evil magic-users) in fantasy, there is an immediate temptation to think of religious fanatics, or of course the ubiquitous 'Necromancers' (who are inevitably assumed to be evil, with no consideration of their possible motivations). I wanted to avoid this, and also avoid the other stereotype implied by the current description (the generic fantasy "thieves' guild"). So I have attempted to incorporate both the magical and criminal elements into something that is not defined by either of these facets.

Note that everything that follows is merely a suggestion - it all comes from my own ideas and my own taste, so I'm not going to take offence if people don't like parts (or even all) of it. Also, this is only a first draft - I'm improvising some elements as I write, and it is all subject to change (and definitely some linguistic polishing, which I will do later!)

My take on the Hidden/Shadowguild/Whatever is a semi-secret society (meaning that everybody has heard of them, but nobody knows who they are, how to find them or even whether they are definitely real - think of the supposed 'Illuminati'). They are dedicated to the ultimate goal of achieving absolute control over society, with the least possible risk or effort. As such, they are constantly engaged in attempts to either subvert powerful individuals, or replace them with their own members. They are not concerned with money, except as a means to an end - the end being the absolute freedom to do whatever they desire.

While there is a hierarchy of sorts, it is not dictatorial in nature. Rather, it is clearly understood that the lower ranks should obey the higher, because the higher ranks are more capable of leading for everybody's benefit. The leaders of the conspiracy maintain power by ensuring that it is well-understood that they have the best ideas, and that everybody would be worse off if they were replaced. But there is always the possibility of advancement, for those who prove themselves capable enough.
At the same time, in an organization primarily motivated by selfishness, there are frequent power-struggles, assassinations and changes of leadership - typically swift, brutal and entirely unseen by outsiders.

The Shadowguild/Hidden cultivate and employ all forms of power in pursuit of their goals. Their membership includes sorcerers, wealthy businessmen, generals, diplomats and influential nobles and politicians, all (theoretically) operating for the advantage of the entire organization. There are also the rank-and-file members - thieves, spies, murderers, and alongside them many seemingly-legitimate citizens. They carefully monitor all levels of society, seek out promising individuals who they consider potentially useful, and very politely invite them to join. Should the invitation be refused, the unfortunate individual in question will find that their story is dismissed, thanks to a massive weight of evidence planted by the would-be recruiters, carefully constructed to mark the reluctant recruit as paranoid and insane.

The same means are employed to maintain loyalty among existing members - the few who attempt to betray the organization's secrets are either branded as delusional, or find themselves implicated in vast and fictitious conspiracies (leading the authorities to typically dismiss their claim of a real conspiracy as simply a desperate cover story)

The Hidden/Shadowguild recruit from all social strata, from the upper nobility to street-children, for they understand that those with the most to gain are likely to be the most loyal. There are persistent rumours that they enforce loyalty by means of magical compulsion, but for obvious reasons this has never been confirmed. They are ultimately governed by a council known as the Keepers of Silence, who each have their own areas of responsibility, but (at least theoretically) make the most far-reaching decisions as a committee. While there is nominally a single Lord of Shadows, this is largely a symbolic position with little if any executive power. Often, the supposed Lord of Shadows is not even a member of the ruling council, but simply a puppet employed to provide the appearance of unity (and an obvious, but harmless, target in the event that any would-be assassin should somehow infiltrate the upper echelons of the organization). Such is the level of deception employed, that even the Lord of Shadows himself is often encouraged to believe that he is in control.

As is obvious from their very nature, the Shadowguild/Hidden hold no lands of their own (at least, not officially), but exist rather as a parasite within every other culture, invisibly manipulating the entire world, safe in the knowledge that even if they were discovered, any attempt to expel them would result in the collapse of the society they infest.

I'm very open to suggestions, opinions and (constructive) criticism.
I also started work on a (very) short story to give a better sense of how I see the faction (will post when finished, likely tomorrow or the day after)

[snowdrop]

I had a look at the (brief) 'Story' section, and the Shadowguild immediately jumped out at me as (A) needing a lot of improvement, and (B) having a lot of potential to do something really interesting.
There are some very cool, original ideas in this game/setting - I love the orcish socialists and utilitarian elves! - and the description of the Shadowguild, as it currently stands, seems to somewhat detract from that as it is so lacking in real originality. So..

Yes, SG needs some seruous love and lacks in originality, yet even more in an identity that makes sense and somehow has a natural place in the overall world. Then again, originality is a very hard thing and I'm not sure how original any of the others are even if I agree that socialist and aware orcs aren't standard in the fantasy genre. (Maybe elfs as utilitarians aren't either, I dunno, at least Tolkiens seem to be secluded...)

Being totally original and innovative would make the world hard to understand and break sacred cows of the genre. If for example all our orcs could fly, or dragons were living in the sea and the elves chunky figures that lived in forest but only desired money one might ask how/why we use the already existing species and totally redefine them instead of renaming them: Total redefinition is something that will mostly break all the expectation and knowledge the reader had prior to partaking in that story.

First I would propose a change of name - this is purely a matter of personal taste, but to me 'Shadowguild' sounds a bit silly. I suggest 'The Hidden'

I agree naming can be better: SG was discussed for quite a while and we even involved the public if I recall correct. It was the best choice at the time. I think it can be improved upon, but also believe that the hidden misses out on something - the group/team feeling. The hidden sounds to me more of a naturalistic naming convention, I would imagine such people to be in the nature, kind of like the elfs, and rarely seen, soundless when moving, quiet in their ways. As a conrast you have xGuild, "The Lae Syndicate" or "House Marou", all suggesting some kind of grouping/order/structural belonging. Even "Cosa Nostra" is such a grouping/uniting name.

Long story short: In the game we have 2 functional/descriptive names of factions (House of Nobles, The Empire), 1-semi-descriptive (Red Banner) and 1 non-descriptive (Gaia). This isn't an issue and quite a nice mix: I am all for having descriptive names as they help with the identity building. Then again, there isn't an issue with not having every name being descriptive. It could however be one when it comes to a faction that we try to intentionally create in a way which isn't conventional. In such cases it seems we'd gain a lot by using a descriptive name instead of one that isn't. Hidden is desc, yet not explicit enough and/or "too nature".

My take on the Hidden/Shadowguild/Whatever is a semi-secret society (meaning that everybody has heard of them, but nobody knows who they are, how to find them or even whether they are definitely real - think of the supposed 'Illuminati').

Works.

Only thing there that needs deciding is the knowing if they are real or not. For example, everyone knows the cosa nostra is real since they blow things up, send messages and so on, while all of the rest still remains true: Nobody (as in "the public") knows who they are, how you can reach them . Partially because they always operate using a front-end (e.g. Sopranos => Garbage industry)

The illuminati doesn't do anything explicit. For us to be able to incorporate all kinds of characters, including low level ones on cards, we perhaps need to be closer to mafia in signature, while still preserving the illuminati in influence. (Then again, politicians were/are regularly bought by the mafia)

They are dedicated to the ultimate goal of achieving absolute control over society, with the least possible risk or effort. As such, they are constantly engaged in attempts to either subvert powerful individuals, or replace them with their own members. They are not concerned with money, except as a means to an end - the end being the absolute freedom to do whatever they desire.

I see a possible contradiction between their ultimate goal (shape society) and what is later described as their real real end (personal freedom). I think one could see the shaping of society as just the instrument to the other, as you write, but I also believe it would be confusing and hard for the identity given we already have at least one-two factions that seek to reshape society (Banner vs Noble conflict), and in a way even a third (Empire, everlasting peace under one flag and one nation).

Maybe we should keep reformation of society out of the picture and focus on the corruptions of people instead, in positions to affect society, by for example change the laws (Again, mafia, Berlusconi et.c.) or whatever is need.

I'm sceptical about their ultimate goal. While it is plausible that it is self-interest, I don't think that having a self-interest in itself is sufficient to make you group, and even if it was, it doesn't give that group a clear and easily understandable meaning that helps identifying the group. For example Mother Teresa belonged to a group of nuns/christians with a clear identity and task, yet she did of course serve her self-interest (she did what she did because she loved god and she was a christian).

I'd suggest working out some kind of grand-plan or objective for SG. It doesn't have to be conventional, but it has to be easily identified and understood by the players. It's a hard task...

. The leaders of the conspiracy maintain power by ensuring that it is well-understood that they have the best ideas, and that everybody would be worse off if they were replaced.

A meritocracy suggests what I was discussing above, some kind of way to measure that, and I don't think it's measurable in terms of everyone's-own-will, while much easier measured in relation to how-good-is-he/she-at-getting-us-closer-to-this-given-goal.

What this reminds me of, and maybe it isn't a bad thing to exploit, is the "agreements" and sit downs are had in the mafia where the families are the units that agree on which one will be the most prominent/leading one for a while... it gets a confidence and their performance is then measured by how well it goes for all the others as well. Now, maybe SG works in a similar way? Clans? Families? Bands? I don't know.. question is what the mid-level unit/grouping is. Low-level is the indivudal, high level is the most prominent leaders of the mid level. Or could totally different structures be used? (Must admit I don't fancy the word "clan" to describe them. Maybe these are bands? Small houses, not prominent to be a member of the House of Nobles, and with somewhat diff objectives... Naming example of one such small group could be "The Nightingales" or "The Barras").

At the same time, in an organization primarily motivated by selfishness, there are frequent power-struggles, assassinations and changes of leadership - typically swift, brutal and entirely unseen by outsiders.

Works. And sometimes we even get to see the occasional believer in the greater cause, only to see his delusions about it getting torn apart by the deceit of fellow brothers.

Their membership includes sorcerers, wealthy businessmen, generals, diplomats and influential nobles and politicians, all (theoretically) operating for the advantage of the entire organization. There are also the rank-and-file members - thieves, spies, murderers, and alongside them many seemingly-legitimate citizens. They carefully monitor all levels of society, seek out promising individuals who they consider potentially useful, and very politely invite them to join.

Who is a real member or not would depend on their overall objective. We should perhaps also somehow divide them into "two casts" - the working and henchmen one, and the decision making one, with some levels/roles within each of course. It seems more plausible that they buy generals/diplomats and corrupt them than having them as real members. (Then again, now we have Berlusconi as a counter-example, but really, he's pretty unique in all kinds of ways ; )

Should the invitation be refused, the unfortunate individual in question will find that their story is dismissed, thanks to a massive weight of evidence planted by the would-be recruiters, carefully constructed to mark the reluctant recruit as paranoid and insane.

The same means are employed to maintain loyalty among existing members - the few who attempt to betray the organization's secrets are either branded as delusional, or find themselves implicated in vast and fictitious conspiracies (leading the authorities to typically dismiss their claim of a real conspiracy as simply a desperate cover story)

Works.

The Hidden/Shadowguild recruit from all social strata, from the upper nobility to street-children, for they understand that those with the most to gain are likely to be the most loyal. There are persistent rumours that they enforce loyalty by means of magical compulsion, but for obvious reasons this has never been confirmed.

If they recruit from all strata then there sure must be some kind of good reason, unifying one, for why people join. I mean, why would a wealthy and already powerful person hook up with criminals? He/she already has power and would risk losing it. There is no apparent need.

(Now that I think of it the Shadowguild starts to sound like a branch of a shadow government. Like it has sprung from what was a functional state/alliance that went wrong somewhere... would also explain the monsters that occur that are used to frighetn the people against external enemies.)

Often, the supposed Lord of Shadows is not even a member of the ruling council, but simply a puppet employed to provide the appearance of unity (and an obvious, but harmless, target in the event that any would-be assassin should somehow infiltrate the upper echelons of the organization). Such is the level of deception employed, that even the Lord of Shadows himself is often encouraged to believe that he is in control.

Sounds great, but maybe other naming. This could actually all be connected to our initial discussion about religion vs atheism: Maybe shadowguild was a cult, still has many of it's structures left, but did over time become a mafia? Nobody believes in the deities any longer and hasn't done so for two-three centuries, yet many of their structures and traditions/rites are still in place. Then again, this also seems hard to grasp as a reader...hrm... nevermind = P

[The Other]

I wrote a really long, in-depth reply to this. So long that I got logged-out and disconnected while I was typing. I'll try and reconstruct the most relevant points from memory...

Are they publicly known?
I'm inclined to think of them as something of an urban myth - so that everybody has heard stories about them, but nobody is completely certain how true the stories are (another parallel with the Illuminati)

Naming
On reading back through what I wrote before, I agree that 'The Hidden' is a bit too vague. It made sense to me, because I already knew what I meant by it. I still think Shadowguild is silly, so I'll think a bit more about that.

Membership
The lower classes join because the SG can offer them money, education, security and other things they could never otherwise access.
The rich and powerful, on the other hand, already have these things. But they can still benefit. The SG has many assassins, spies, saboteurs, smugglers, thugs and whatever other 'shady characters' you might want - all of whose services are made available to fellow members. SG membership can provide access to contacts and services that such 'respectable' individuals would otherwise never be able to use. And, of course, they can make life very difficult for a member's non-connected rivals.
However powerful you are, it's always nice to have people watching your back. Especially when those people are ninjas...

Goals
Yeah, this bit still needs some work...
It's possible that they once had a definite purpose, but have now forgotten or abandoned it. Maybe, once upon a time, they were even 'good guys' (I've always liked anti-heroes). Possibly they once used underhand and immoral means to pursue a noble purpose, but somehow lost their way and now continue through sheer inertia (how does one safely dissolve a secret society composed largely of criminals? It might be a better idea to keep the society active, just to retain control over the members!)
Not sure about this, you're right that pure self-interest is a fairly unlikely explanation.

Leadership and decision-making
The Mafia sit-down idea is a good one, I like the idea that leadership is passed around and that the leader remains answerable to those who elected him. Not too sure about terminology - cells? Like terrorists or spies - it (intentionally) implies a high level of organization and professionalism.

In short, you can think of the SG (at least my current conception of them) as a kind of cross between the Mafia and the Freemasons, combining the functions of both.

[snowdrop]

Are they publicly known?
I'm inclined to think of them as something of an urban myth - so that everybody has heard stories about them, but nobody is completely certain how true the stories are (another parallel with the Illuminati)

If so, then low-level membership doesn't seem probable. Illuminati isn't around because petty thieves can join them or because they are open to the public: On the contrary - it's an elite club for selected few. They in return control masses and various people/organizations/establishments, but those on that level are not aware of their owners true identity, intentions or membership at the illuminati,

What I'm opposing here is the idea of something being mythicly secret and yet massively available for membership to every person from every strata. The more mythic an organisation is, the less true members it is likely to have. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a lot of unknowing henchmen that are used for whatever purposes (for example summoned skeletons, thugs, monsters).

The relationship and nature of the chaos and public side of this organization and it's inner circle and it's real goals is what has to be straightened out somehow so that it feels natural and not an ad hoc solution.

I still think Shadowguild is silly, so I'll think a bit more about that.

As long as the game isn't released we can change that to whatever is better and pops out. And something will do so sooner or later.

Not too sure about terminology - cells? Like terrorists or spies - it (intentionally) implies a high level of organization and professionalism.

Cell sounds too futuristic and modern for my taste. I think we can do better: "Coven" or "kull" or whatever wannabe-word we can introduce would work wonders once explained to the players. But, this is still not easy to follow: If there are cells/families all over and the members are low level, then the organizations are still pretty public and not anywhere near illuminati.

So either the cell-thought goes, or they get slightly more public.If the cells go, we would still have to explain all the low level characters, so I kind of like them.

[The Other]

I've been pondering this for much of today, and came up with a somewhat different and rather more detailed take on the SG (it's a bit long...)

(Note that 'Domino' is just the first name that came to mind, and may well be changed if somebody has a better idea. Personally, I quite like it, though I'm not too sure why I thought of it!)

The Domino Cartel began as a minor noble house at the height of the Empire. While they were ranked among the lower echelons of nobility (Counts, Barons or whatever the Imperial equivalent was/is), their wealth and, therefore, their influence rapidly surpassed many of the higher-ranked families, thanks to the inspired business decisions of the first few Counts Domino.

This, of course, generated a lot of resentment among the upper nobility, who felt that the Dominos were rising above their station and needed to be put in their place. In an unprecedented display of unity, almost all the higher noble houses banded together to form a socio-economic superpower with the aim of driving the Dominos out of business and into bankruptcy (which, under Imperial law, would also have resulted in the loss of their title and lands).

At first, it worked - the Dominos were driven almost to ruin. But predictably, their rivals didn't stay united for long. At the first sign of division, Count Domino pushed back hard, spending almost his entire treasury to win back clients and markets he had previously lost. This bought him enough time to enact an admittedly desperate stratagem.

Count Domino stunned the entire Empire by selling his ancestral estate and title to a then-unknown, though hugely wealthy, entrepreneur. At the time, this was technically legal owing purely to the lack of precedent - the Emperor hadn't bothered to ban something which he never thought anybody would do. With a portion of the considerable proceeds of this sale, the no-longer-Count Domino came to an arrangement with certain criminal organizations. He and his family were conveyed to safety and hidden from their rivals. And, in a totally unexpected act of vengeance, he also hired dozens of the most skilled assassins in the Empire.

Within two days, the head of every other noble family lay dead, and Domino openly declared his part in the atrocity. The aristocracy, predictably, were effectively paralyzed with shock, and spent most of the next five years embroiled in bitter internal feuds over the new succession arrangements. Even when the dust finally settled, most of the next generation of nobles proved incompetent - this was probably a significant factor in the decline of the Empire.

Meanwhile, faced with enormous public outcry, the Emperor himself instigated a massive purge against organized crime. Within a year, over ninety percent of professional criminals in the Empire were either executed or imprisoned.
This, of course, left the field essentially clear. Soon, word spread that a new order had arisen in the underworld. Many of those criminals who had successfully evaded the Imperial purge had now gathered together, backed up by Domino money, forming a new organization jointly headed by a dozen of the Empire's greatest criminal masterminds.

Under the nominal leadership of the Dominos, and with the stated goal of driving both the Empire and the Noble Houses to ruin, the new cartel flourished. Not only were they running the only game in town, but their membership was, at least initially, determined by survival of the fittest (for only the most resourceful and talented criminals had escaped the Purge), leading to a much more competent and professional operation than had been seen before.
With no effective competition, the newly-formed Domino Cartel swiftly consolidated its grip on the streets of the Empire. Profits were vast, and spending liberal. The Cartel bribed judges, politicians, merchants and guards to look the other way while they effectively took over entire cities. Then came their masterstroke.

A cabal of ingenious rogue sorcerers employed by the Cartel redefined the known principles of magic overnight, joining their powers in an unprecedented way to broadcast a single message to every single person in the Empire. This message proclaimed that the current model of government was outdated and defective, and that the Cartel's mission was to bring down the Empire and noble houses and replace them with a new order, where status would be determined purely by wealth. They also issued an open invitation, for anybody with a grudge against the Empire to present themselves at the Cartel's headquarters in the city of Skarreg.

Predictably, legions of the disaffected appeared within a matter of weeks, including former (and in some cases current) soldiers, merchants, criminals and witches, among many others. The Cartel accepted the very best of them as new members - and then murdered the rest and piled their heads in the city square.
The point was made - the Empire had made a powerful new enemy, one which would stop at nothing to achieve victory. Morality, religion and the law were all equally disregarded by the Cartel, who combined traditional organised crime with dark, forbidden magic and a sense of strategy previously unheard-of among such groups.

From then up to the present day, they have continued their semi-secret war against the now-decaying Empire and Noble Houses. By choice, they operate in the shadows, their favoured methods being assassination, sabotage and other terror tactics - but, on occasion, they have been known to deploy large bodies of highly-competent paramilitary troops, backed up by undead warriors and other, far worse, creatures called up by their witches.
They have also carried on their policy of recruiting only the best potential members, and executing those who don't make the grade.

Screw secrecy, the Mafia are going to war!
Does this make more sense?

EDITED FOR CLARITY: A couple of things I forgot to explain...
1. The Cartel has necromancers and other dark wizards, because it's the only place they can have any kind of 'job security'. I'm assuming that certain forms of magic are either illegal, or at least unpopular enough that they are not good career choices. But the Cartel will happily embrace anything that can turn a profit (rent-a-zombie-slave, anyone? ) or otherwise give them an advantage.
2. They happily broadcast the location of their HQ, because the city of Skarreg is for all practical purposes owned by the Cartel, and is/was on the outskirts of the Empire, so by the time an army could get there, everybody important would be long-gone - which the Emperor realized, so he didn't bother.
3. I don't know whether the Domino family still run the Cartel or not, and I doubt anyone else does either. It's quite possible that the more recent leaders simply kept the established 'brand'.
4. The Noble Houses referred to here may or may not be the same as the 'House of Nobles' faction - I refer to the aristocracy of the old Empire, and it's currently unclear whether HoN are the same or if they originated more recently.
5. The Cartel's backstory ties in quite nicely with what the Wiki currently says about the Empire. I don't know if you have any other writers actively working on this project at the moment - if not, and if you're happy with the Cartel's background, I'd be happy to adapt/extend it to fill in some blanks concerning HoN and the Empire too.

[Q_x]

As for the story - I think this is how house of nobles could be raised. The story is too colorful for what I think the shadowguild could be.
That is connected with the concept of how factions are designed. We have elves, using the power of peace and love to fight their enemies, joining powers with merefolk - magical, too different to be accepted in any other faction, orcs and goblins, that join their small and big fists not in a socialistic, but communistic way, more like ants - hence the Red Banner. Empire that uses raw, well-trained power and HoN that concentrates on buying whatever is needed - no matter if this is information (espionage), diplomacy (influence), political power (corruption), or brute force (soldiers of fortune).
What is the missing link here? We have expressed the power of peace and love - values often placed high by some people, consolidated society, also highly valued in some cultures, hard work that leads to reliable power, and wealth that can buy it all. The question is: what is missing in this world?

I think we were already tormenting Shadowguild in every possible way, there were many good ideas - a conspiracy, crime underground - that is both crimes against people, like blackmail or backstabbing, through corrupting politicians, espionage (that's more HoN way), to crimes against magic and religion, like necromancy.
My favorite idea so far are outcasts, the under-underground, organized around various center points that sometimes communicate to achieve a common goal. Very vital aspect here is those in SG are not evil people - in the sense of lack of human feelings, lust for brutality, but mostly either curious people who do not believe in the reasons standing behind social norms or limits, or individuals socially excluded due to various reasons: minorities, victims of establishment or political or social system, individuals raised in red light districts, or stigmatized in any other way.

[The Other]

Hmm, that could work...a society of all those rejected or abandoned by society
In that case, I think we'd need to emphasise the magical aspect more than I have in any of my earlier attempts - otherwise it's hard to see how they can compete with (and hence, be playable against) any of the more 'normal' factions.

Two-minute-brainstorm...
A group of eccentric wizards, wishing to experiment in ways that their guilds/orders/trade unions don't allow, went underground (maybe even literally, building a secret magical lab in the sewers or something). Freed from the shackles of orthodox society, they established their own micro-community centred on knowledge and the pursuit thereof. Somewhere along the way, they incorporated (or were incorporated into) the National Freaks and Weirdos Association, to the advantage of both parties. The magi gained a large number of (hopefully) willing assistants and even test subjects, as well as the knowledge and experience of a large group of people already used to existing outside society, while the misfits benefited from the wizards' superior education, intelligence and (obviously) magical power.
This can be very interesting, as it is then possible to portray the SG (the faction with all the monsters and undead) as actually being the most noble and idealistic group by our standards - maybe all they want is to be accepted and allowed to live in peace. No big political agenda (other than a vague desire for a more tolerant world), no grand crusade, and no social and economic engineering - just a group of free-thinkers, 'alternative-lifestylers' and people who can't help being who (or what) they are.

This is also great fun for me or anybody else who might want to write fiction about them, because it allows for an entire culture of eccentrics and possible lunatics, with nothing holding them together except that they have nowhere else to go. Oh, the possibilities...

[snowdrop]

We have elves, using the power of peace and love to fight their enemies, joining powers with merefolk - magical, too different to be accepted in any other faction, orcs and goblins, that join their small and big fists not in a socialistic, but communistic way, more like ants - hence the Red Banner. Empire that uses raw, well-trained power and HoN that concentrates on buying whatever is needed - no matter if this is information (espionage), diplomacy (influence), political power (corruption), or brute force (soldiers of fortune).

What is the missing link here? We have expressed the power of peace and love - values often placed high by some people, consolidated society, also highly valued in some cultures, hard work that leads to reliable power, and wealth that can buy it all. The question is: what is missing in this world?

I think we were already tormenting Shadowguild in every possible way, there were many good ideas

I think you put it on the spot: What are we missing? Again, outlining the:

Gaia
Nature-loving, ethical people, trying to save forrests and waters from exploitation, saving moder earth. Peacefull & loving, yet logical. Focus on calming aggression, and neutralizing those that do harm. Wants to save what already exists from whatever forces that wants to harm it.

Empire
Once a great force a la the Roman empire in our own world, today just a tenth or so of it's former glory it is struggling to re-stablish itself and squash all opposition beneath a uniting foot. They are slow, well armored and very shiny and militaristic. Wants to re-stablish itself and some heir to the throne probably also wants a gruesome vengeance against somebody that ha noble and back-stabbing blood.

Nobles
Somehow an effort to make all the lands keep free from the Empire's renewed grip but also in conflict with the backbones of it's power - the very labour they exploit, thus opposing the Red Banner. They want a liberal and more democratic world where every citizen (which is not to say "everyone") can vote since popularity is easily manipulated trhough coin, which they also use to hire mercenary armies, dispatched to do their bidding. Nobles rose from the ashes from the fall of the original Empire - they quickly became the elite of society through their wealth and smartness to organize it. Now they seek to consolidate what they have.

Banner
Orcs, gobo's, other non-humans and also human ex-peasants and workers starting to unite in the cities, rising about, seeking outwards again to rally in guerilla-style struggles charging merchant convoys from the mountains, pillaging weak castles etc and slowly spreading conciousness among their class about the only relevant struggle - the one that will free them all from what is explicit or disguised slavery. Number one enemy is anything that exploits the very fibre of their being and, indirectly, anything that stands in the way. They're also deeply offended by the Gaian notion of peacefull living, as they have seen that peace changes nothing and that power is never released or shared - it can only be taken from the grips of those that posses it.


What is missing? Another power-house maybe seems redundant story-wise. Nobles is a power, Empire is a power, there we already have two real ones. Adding criminals would just be a variant of that, even if criminal syndicate has been what I've been supporting for a long time.

I know it's very cliche, but religious cult is still adding something more different than a criminal gang would, to the game setting, overall. And yet, it is so cliche.

I'm not sure why/how outcasts would not join the Banner's struggle. Seems to me there is no reason as for why the banner wouldn't accept them as members.

I also have a hard time seeing the shadowguild as a bunch of missunderstod free-souls, free-thinkers... that sounds more like they'd be bohemian poets than skellies and all kinds of nasty looking creatures. I dont think the average player can even begin to comprehend how they can be what we'll describe them as if we're taking that line. Average player will not make that association visually.

1. SG as some kind of non-faction: Let them a people of a newly discovered continent or region or something. They are uncontrolled hoards and peoples beyong the charted territories, living where conditions were thought to be too rough, where there is often mist, fog and swamp lands...

2. Something as in 1, but make it underworld cities, kind of like atlantis but in earth... maybe they're using old mines, reminenats from dwarvish empires (a la tolkien)

3. Somthing like 2, but founded on some kind of Lepra-colony or other foonky plague that somehow explains why they aren't accepted by rest of society... could be something HIV-like... also unknwon where it came from, but rumours are it was released as part of the resistance against the Empire, but it escaped and went out of control... or... it was brought back with relic shards from some foonky expedition done by the Empire, supposedly uncovering magic powers to aid them in regaining forgotten glory, but via the mishap leading to the creation or release of something plague-like... hrm hrm...


This is really hard.... i think its a challnege because of the "evil" way they look... *clueless*

[The Other]

It's not as easy as it looks, is it...?

I'm struggling to find a way of sensibly incorporating undead/necromancy and suchlike, without making them blatantly evil. All I can see are two decent options, summed up as (A) ancestor worship, and (B) trying to achieve immortality. (A) seems out of place in this setting, as it' (usually) associated with more primitive cultures. It's possible such a culture could survive in the WTactics world, but they'd need a huge advantage to balance inferior technology and lack of cultural development (why idn't the Empire conquer them when it was still a superpower?)

(B) seems a more plausible, and interesting, option. Possibly an order of mages and philosophers, fixated on the goal of becoming immortal and hence taking one step closer to divinity (there is some comparison with the alchemists and gnostic ceremonial magicians of European history, though the methods are different).
Maybe, rather than endlessly pursuing the Quintessence and the Philosopher's Stone (as happened in Europe from the Middle Ages onwards), they focused on ways of keeping body and soul united even after the body died (in traditional fantasy terms, they want to become liches so they can live forever). Once this became public knowledge, all factions turned against them for various reasons, and the SG were forced to adapt their power over life and death for the purposes of self-defense.
Empire and HoN probably both envy them and fear them (how do you deal with dissidents who don't stay dead when you execute them?), as well as an obvious and natural predjudice against undead and the creation thereof. Gaians will regard them as a horrific abomination against nature, and may have trouble withtheir philosophy too (if immortality were to be bestowed on the masses, population would rapidly outstrip all resources - leading to massive suffering in various ways - and resolution of conflicts becomes a challenge). Gaians might well wish to destroy the secret of immortality/resurrection/undeath before it is acquired by tyrants and other various assholes.
And the Red Banner will almost certainly have issues with (what they will see as) an elitist association which contributes nothing to society, but only provides tools to reinforce the (unsatisfactory) status quo (if immortality/lichedom becomes publicly available, the rich and powerful would probably be the first in line)
I realise that 'immortality' sounds like a horribly-unbalancing 'quirk' for a faction - but consider...
Presumably the body can still be damaged or even destroyed - but the soul remains attached to whatever is left. Anything that can destroy a normal human being could possibly put such an 'immortal' out of action, at least until they either repair the body through magic or migrate to a new one.

I see a number of advntges of this explanation compared to previous efforts:
1. They can use 'forbidden powers' and break any social taboos without any guilt, because they believe they are above 'ordinary mortals' and so live by different standards.
2. They can incorporate undead and necromanctic weirdness and appear to be 'bad guys' in everybody else's eyes, without being one-dimensionally 'evil'.
3. A clear difference in nature from all other factions - they're not a nation, a political party or a social movement, but rather a relatively small group with no interest in social issues except in relation to their own unique agenda.
4. Snowdrop can have his cult , albeit philosophical rather than religious.

I don't know if you guys like this or not - personally it's my favourite of the suggestions I have made so far, but obviously it's a question of taste and this is your project.

[tex]

What is missing? Another power-house maybe seems redundant story-wise. Nobles is a power, Empire is a power, there we already have two real ones. Adding criminals would just be a variant of that, even if criminal syndicate has been what I've been supporting for a long time.

Maybe I don't understand what the game means by "faction," but it would seem to me that the five factions are powerful or influential by definition. I'm curious: Are factions in WTactics territorial, like basically they're fundamentally countries or states?

I know it's very cliche, but religious cult is still adding something more different than a criminal gang would, to the game setting, overall. And yet, it is so cliche.

Why worry? One man's cliches are another man's beloved archetypes. : ] What do you think about a massive mainstream religious organization instead of a cult? Maybe it split off or emerged from the weakening Empire.

1. SG as some kind of non-faction: Let them a people of a newly discovered continent or region or something.

What if the newly-discovered thing is the continent that has the other four factions, that is, the fifth faction are invaders or would-be conquerers? Maybe that's what's causing the crowding and territorial squabbles inherent to the game's narrative.