Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

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jojo
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by jojo » Sun Apr 15, 2012 15:41

The card game is about factions fighting each other, right? So it makes sense for all the factions to have some kind of visible presence. So completely-secret societies are out. We don't want the Shadowguild to be seen as automatically evil, so how to make them sympathetic? They're just a bunch of happy-go-lucky mages who happen to want to become liches- the only way they can see that they'll become immortal. They don't inherently want to pillage or destroy, they just want to do their thing. However, everyone else finds them heretical/dangerous/anathema/etc., and so they're forced to hire thugs to protect themselves, raise skeletons and make common cause with other woefully misunderstood monsters. The faction is as monstrous and organised precisely because others see them as monsters and don't want them to organise.
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by The Other » Sun Apr 15, 2012 17:51

Tht's pretty much what I was aiming at with my last suggestion. As you say, secret societies are great for storytelling, but don't translate well to any kind of game involving open conflict. I kind of forgot that initially, because I am a writer of fiction first and a gamer/game developer distant second.
I tend to see the SG as morally-apathetic. They don't see themselves as evil (who does?), and don't really consider the morality of their actions and methods. To them, necromancy isn't inherently wrong, it's just a tool that more ignorant people are afraid to use. Likewise, they don't deliberately want to hurt anybody - but have no moral objection to killing people who get in their way. It's just the law of the jungle.
They don't actively seek power over others - they are only interested in power over themselves and the ability to transend death. They probably view their enemies as sentimental fools who are afraid of progress and, as such, act to hold back those who wish to better themselves (specifically the SG). As such, killing these enemies becomes something between self-defence and pest control, rather than war or murder.
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snowdrop
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by snowdrop » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:48

The Other wrote: they want to become liches so they can live forever). Once this became public knowledge, all factions turned against them for various reasons, and the SG were forced to adapt their power over life and death for the purposes of self-defense.
Empire and HoN probably both envy them and fear them (how do you deal with dissidents who don't stay dead when you execute them?), as well as an obvious and natural predjudice against undead and the creation thereof. Gaians will regard them as a horrific abomination against nature, and may have trouble withtheir philosophy too (if immortality were to be bestowed on the masses, population would rapidly outstrip all resources - leading to massive suffering in various ways - and resolution of conflicts becomes a challenge). Gaians might well wish to destroy the secret of immortality/resurrection/undeath before it is acquired by tyrants and other various assholes.
And the Red Banner will almost certainly have issues with (what they will see as) an elitist association which contributes nothing to society, but only provides tools to reinforce the (unsatisfactory) status quo (if immortality/lichedom becomes publicly available, the rich and powerful would probably be the first in line)
I realise that 'immortality' sounds like a horribly-unbalancing 'quirk' for a faction - but consider...
Presumably the body can still be damaged or even destroyed - but the soul remains attached to whatever is left. Anything that can destroy a normal human being could possibly put such an 'immortal' out of action, at least until they either repair the body through magic or migrate to a new one.
Sounds ok... the only thing I see needs more work for it to be a more complete suggestion is their goals: It shouldn't be immortality for immortalitys own sake, as it doesn't make sense to me - immortality is only interesting if you have other goals in life, why else would you want to be immortal? Self-preservation and survival due to the others hunting them down and being afraid of them, due to prejudice and mythology (most often incorrect) maybe explains their goal. On top of that, some groups have taken it up to defend themselves by acting "pre-emptive", declaring war on the normals, that brought it upon themselves by persecution and hatred of innocents.

Maybe the immortality isn't real either. I like your suggestion of transfer and bodies being able to be destroyed. In that sense they aren't any more immortal than anyone else. What they do master however is some way to wander from one vessel to another. But is that really something they learned, or is it something that they maybe inherited? Are they even sure they can do this until they "die"?

Maybe they are just a minority 5-10% or so, of the total population from wherever they come, with no visible/physical way of knowing, at least until the first time it happens?

tex wrote:Maybe I don't understand what the game means by "faction," but it would seem to me that the five factions are powerful or influential by definition. I'm curious: Are factions in WTactics territorial, like basically they're fundamentally countries or states?
No, it's a less conventional way of having factions around: Factions in the game is just a group of sentient beings, most likely humanoids, that have a common goal that unites them somehow and gives them a reason to co-work, and to various extents an identity.

Currently much of the world in WT is made up by city-states, as it came back to after the fall of the Empire some time ago. Among them you will find both conflicts but also alliances, making them resemble small "countries".

Territory is important indirectly to the different factions, like for example Gaia wants to protect their woods and waters, while Nobles want to exploit them and control the city states, while Banner don't accept the notion of people being able to own the land their sheds are built on and take rent from them... and so on.

The conflicts are in part about territory, but not in the sense we're used to, country vs country. The conflicts are more complex/fluid than that. The one that focuses most on territory is the Empire.

tex wrote:Why worry? One man's cliches are another man's beloved archetypes. : ] What do you think about a massive mainstream religious organization instead of a cult? Maybe it split off or emerged from the weakening Empire.
"Mainstream" rhymes badly with them having to face 80% of the factions in the game ;) It also seems less plausible when they look like they do that people will seek them out and go "hey, I wanna join, make me an ugly monster"...
tex wrote:What if the newly-discovered thing is the continent that has the other four factions, that is, the fifth faction are invaders or would-be conquerers? Maybe that's what's causing the crowding and territorial squabbles inherent to the game's narrative.
I think I like this in combo with The Other's suggestion: They're from a new continent, from uncharted lands known as "the black" or "the void", due to how it looks on the world map, or the fact that it is outside of the map :P Presumably they came by water, if we're to believe the Merfolk history, written at a time before Gaia was created. Not a hoard at once, but large groups of migrants, settling down in the outskirts of the known world, which was then the Empire and didn't care about these swampy or desolate regions with no populous or infrasturcture.

Once discovered they were perceived as horrific abominations by some, as a conquering threat by others and so on. Their rough-edged culture didn't help them, and once the world began to realize they could fool death in some way it was assumed that most of them possessed the ability.

A cleansing began, dispatched by the Emperor, in an attempt to rid himself from an uncontrollable people that, as he perceived it, had refused to give him the power of immortality. This came as a surprise to them and they were decimated and scattered, temporarily fleeing and hiding throughout the lands. While engaged in this "war" the imperial forces we're thin and poorly organized, giving opportunity to the other enemies of the Empire to start revolting... and sometime then a plague came about, mass deaths spread all over the continent, and all fell into chaos.

Reason for why the Shadowguild (maybe new name is in place if we'd go with that story, or maybe not.. hrm...) has it's powers is unknown to the general public. Some speculate they're in connection with demons, others that they're magical beings gone wrong. It's also rumored "moonstones" struck down in their old lands, glowing with fire that wasn't burning, affecting the people and animals alike transforming the very body of some while bestowing the ability of transfer to others. At the same time "the blight" from the moonstones spread, which poisoned the waters and killed the crops etc, thus people had to abandon their homes and seek out better lands...


Hrm...
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by tex » Wed Apr 18, 2012 21:05

Okay, thanks for the clarification on what a faction in WT is.

For my two suggestions, (mainstream religious organization and the strangers) it's also possible to drop the essential "shadowguildishness" of the fifth faction and they'll work okay.

In the former case, imagine some mainstream religion of the Empire with a large institutional organization, and during the fall of the Empire they somehow became a territorial and military power. Sort of like an alternate history of Europe, if the Catholic church took control of Rome and declared theocratic sovereignty. It fits with territorial organization around city-states.

I think a mainstream religion, call it X, as a faction would do alright, because mainstream doesn't mean universal. Likewise, maybe that's one of their methods of having power at the game table. You can play a Convert to X card on an opposing player's units, and that adds a keyword "Xist" to it. Then Higher Calling -- lets you gain control of an Xist. I can imagine religiously-themed buff spells and effects that work on Xists, or work better on them. So there's a point to converting your own units to Xism if they're from a different faction, or non-factioned mercenaries or something.

You could take the religious theme from above, drop the mainstream part, and combine it with the invasion with intent to conquer, and make them some race (Dwarves?) wishing to take the continent for their religion. Conversion by the axe, as it were. : ]

Not that I'm opposed to retaining the essence of the Shadowguild for my two ideas necessarily.
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by The Other » Thu Apr 19, 2012 16:05

I'm making this up as I go along, but I think it makes sense...

Long ago, Imperial explorer-conquistodores brought back slaves from another continent. These slaves practised a form of ancestor-worship, with the twist that they were right - their dead ancestors really were hanging around, watching over them and communing with their shamans. Their culture was based around individual freedom, to such an extent that they considered (un)death to be a better option than slavery.
Guided by their wise men (both living and dead), who were able to predict the future to some limited extent, they waited until they ad become an integral part of the Imperial economy. Then, in a gesture of ultimate defiance, every single man, woman and child killed themselves.
The Imperial economy was shaken to the core, and many noble families bankrupted by the collapse of their businesses. The Empire blamed the nobles for failing to keep their business - and the economy - on track, while the nobles blamed the empire for importing the slaves in the first place (hence bad blood between Empir and HoN).
Back to the slaves...
Some individuals (maybe all, maybe the strongest magicians, or maybe simply the angriest ones) discovered that they were still able to affect the physical world (in the traditional ghostly way). In a horrific act of revenge on their captors, these angry spirits possessed the bodies of the children of their former 'owners'. Overnight, entire noble households were wiped out by the vengeful body-thieves, who fled into the hidden places of the world until their 'hosts' had grown to maturity.
Which brings us to the present day. They can have both living and undead creatures (the hosts are technically alive, and able to breed and indoctrinate the next generation, while the spirits are able to possess dead bodies too if circumstances require it), and they have motivation for conflict with all four other factions - Empire and HoN are obvious, while the Gaians presumably frown on violent revenge and mass-murder. And the Red Banner partly blame them for the state of the economy, and hence for their own difficulties.
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by snowdrop » Mon Apr 30, 2012 09:10

Hrm... I think that has too much emphasis on the spiritual world and too much focus on their ability to wander.


I rather see something in lines with what I posted 18 Apr 2012. There is plenty of stuff there that can be improved though, but in summary:

- They can transfer their minds somehow, a la Vulcans (Star Trek).

- "They" are a minority, even in their own lands. Part by nature, but part because whoever they mindjump into has to be willing, making it hard to find candidates...

- Mindjump doesn't totally replace it's targets mind. The minds blend together and become a single one, forever, until real death. The end result is not 50-50 of the minds - it is a pretty unpredictable process and sometimes most of what is left comes from the new hosts mind, leaving just 30-40% of the old one that transferred, sometimes leading to very conflicted individuals / personalities. This is more often true for younger individuals that haven't made the mindleap journey a couple of times already.

- There is some good reason for why they left their lands and started settling in desolated empire corners. I suggest a comet downfall that had some good effects but also poisoned nature and spreading radioctivity, further explaining some mutations and gene strangeness... but it could be something else. Maybe it is a plague spread by a comet (in such a case maybe they unknowingly spread it to the rest of the known world, and that's when the empire crumbled..?)

- Letting them be a seafaring people that crossed some kind of huge ocean is probably a bad (mine?) idea, let's rather make them come on land.

- They aren't very likable due to looks and believed to carry plagues etc, much like jews & other people have been hunted throughout europe for long and blamed for everything gone wrong. This is of course all prejudice, yet the hatred towards them is passed on in many of the mainstream cultures.

- Due to fading numbers because of the hardships of finding hosts, the wiser minds that have been around for quite a long time now seek out desperate methods such as necormancy etc to create helpers that can protect the sg.

- Maybe they have some underground capital or smaller cities, a la Fremen (Dune), in gigantic cave systems (again, abandoned by the dwarves centuries ago since they are now for hire and work for the noble & coin, most of them), maybe not...

- There is talk about RB & SG joining forces, but the common member found in each faction doesn't see it happening due to mutual fear of the other.( Maybe they did co-work earlier but broke it off due to internal power-struffles within RB, where somebody accused SG of overtaking a great RB leader by mindjumping into him against his will (impossible ofc, which SG knows, but RB and world doesn't believe it) when in fact that leader was willing to the leap...)
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by The Other » Tue May 01, 2012 19:46

Oooh I like that...
I actually can't see any big problem with anything you've suggested (though clearly more detail is needed)
I'll see if I can work it up into a more literary (or, less bullet-point-y) format, and come up with some ideas to fill in some of the blanks.
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Re: Some thoughts on the Shadowguild

Post by verbalshadow » Sat May 26, 2012 23:26

Sorry for the late entry.



The Family.

Originally formed at the height of the Empire by a nun, mage, and a scientist the most brilliant thinkers of their day. Together they searched for The Truth. 

During their heyday the were amoung the top charities the nobles of the empire donated to and the people you went to if you down on your luck and needed help. By the fall of the empire they had evolved into wandering people spread the search for The Truth. The Family has the religious fervor of the nun, the power of the mage, and knowledge of the scientist. The Family looks out after each other. Joining is easy but becoming a member is hard and tied to your level of understanding.

Many amoung them now feel they have found The Truth. Everything should have worked to make a better world, and yet they still failed. The Family knows this in the root of their hearts. Because of this their are two groups inside of The Family: those who accept "The Truth" as currently understood as correct and those who still seek The Truth that requires no explanation.



NOTES: Think of The Family as the Red Banner 50 or 100+ years after their initial successes. That is to say they have become corrupted by their stagnation. That is how they lost the fight for a better world. Though most of them do not understand this, yet.



The Nun, Mage, and Scientist were literally a Family ( a triangle) and that is the origin of the name.



Undead and the like are the minions of the Majority.
The Minority group may use other means.



Both internal groups sympathize with the Red Banner understanding their wants and needs, in many way better than the Red Banner does themselves. The Majority feel that their history shows the futility of the quest and thus will not help with out incentive. The Minority feel that history has taught them something but with out The Truth that requires no explanation, helping the Red Banner out is futile until then.
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