Kraus: 'Lo there!

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Kraus
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Kraus: 'Lo there!

Post by Kraus » Wed Jan 12, 2011 21:55

Hi!

I found the website, and about the project, ages ago. Now I'm a bit dissapointed I didn't start hanging out and lurking on the development forums earlier on. Not that I would've had too much time or energy to actually contribute to the game, but keeping up with the latest info would've been much easier.

First of all, a lot of recognition for the layout and artwork of the cards! I have no idea who you've got to draw the additional artwork to fill in gaps left after using original artwork from Wesnoth, but s/he/they know what they're doing. So, the theme works, as Wesnoth tends to, and the layout of the cards is fabulous this far.

I got to wonder about things, however, and curiosity was the main thing that got me registering: What games have you played before, and from where do you draw your inspiration? I myself haven't played too many CCGs, sadly, but those I have I've usually played a long time, or at least dived into the rules system to understand how the game works as well as I can.

That said I personally hate, loath and dispise MtG. It might be a bit too much to say that, actually, but the fact remains, that during my time of gaming I've played plenty of other card/board/whatever games that outmatch Magic in replayability and fun. Of course I've faced games worse than MtG, and as a game it's not bad - just saying it was more enjoyable those ten years ago, when Urza's Saga was new. ;) I think I stopped playing after Mercadian Masques or something like that.

So, someone very interested in your project (having played actively games such as Magic the Gathering, Vampire the Eternal Struggle [one of my all time favourites], Warcry, loads of new-age board games like Small World and Game of Thrones, more than 10 years of Warhammer, and occasionally many others) is asking: What games drive you, and what influences do you deliberately use, and search for?

No worries, I don't think of myself as one of those elitist/puritanist whatev's, who just have to barge into others' projects and get themselves heard. :) "I liked this and that, you do that 'cause I say so!" I'll leave that to others. I am curious, however, even that much so that I decided to register here instead of opening my exam books.

Oh, and the compulsory bio: 22 years old, Finnish, currently studying English and Translation studies in Northern-Ireland. Yadda yaa.



ps. Too bad Sabertooth, currently Fantasy Flight, keep no record or rules of anykind of Warcry in the internet. The game itself was interesting and original, and focused - as WT - on unit vs unit combat; you mustered a battleline and reserve line out of Fantasy themed units in three rounds (20 gold, 25 gold and 30 gold), and one by one players selected a unit to attack with, and used 'tactic' cards from another deck to boost their effectiveness in multitude of ways. Warcry used to handle ranged and melee combat, and how reserves and battleline worked, very interestingly. The only thing wrong in the game was a flawed marketing, and sometimes even very poor balancing. Would you ever choose a common, that gives 2 strength with 3 tactic points, over an uncommon giving 3 strength with 2 tactic? I didn't think so.
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pennomi
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Re: 'Lo there!

Post by pennomi » Thu Jan 13, 2011 01:37

Hello and welcome! We're happy to have you around. There's plenty going on right now, and IMHO, you came in at just the right time, because we're ramping up the speed to get ready for internal playtesting.
Kraus wrote: No worries, I don't think of myself as one of those elitist/puritanist whatev's, who just have to barge into others' projects and get themselves heard. :) "I liked this and that, you do that 'cause I say so!" I'll leave that to others. I am curious, however, even that much so that I decided to register here instead of opening my exam books.
While we're happy you're not trying to take over here, I sure hope you won't be too quiet either. We value every suggestion and if it's better than what we currently have, we'll put it in for sure. Also, with your experience with lots of different types of games, hopefully you can help us with designing new cards and balancing what we have. If you have any questions, feel free to email me (pennomi (a) wtactics (dot) org) or hop onto IRC (freenode, channel #WTactics).
Kraus wrote: What games drive you, and what influences do you deliberately use, and search for?
I love all types of games! The ones that catch my attention the most are games with simple, clever rules sets that allow for lots of in-game decision making and out-of-game customization. Perhaps that's one reason I'm drawn to the CCG/LCG genre. I also am a fan of RPGs. I also like the game Munchkin quite a bit.

One of the things I believe about games is summed up as such: "The more times you can look back on a game and say 'If I had done this differently, I would have won,' the better the game is." Decision-making and strategy are my favorite aspects of all games.
Kraus
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Re: 'Lo there!

Post by Kraus » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:21

Hi!

Thanks for the reply. :) It's nice to have some encouraging replies to your hellos - especially when you're not exactly sure if your opinion is needed or not. ;) Some development teams - and for a good reason, I might add! - just don't want outsiders to meddle.

I'll, when I have time, try to search the site for first drafts of rules and such. It might be interesting to learn a bit more thoroughly what's going on in wtactics, enginewise. I'm sure to introduce this project to my friends next summer if the first playable drafts get finished. I think we find out rather quickly if games have what it takes to please us.
pennomi wrote:
Kraus wrote: What games drive you, and what influences do you deliberately use, and search for?
I love all types of games! The ones that catch my attention the most are games with simple, clever rules sets that allow for lots of in-game decision making and out-of-game customization. Perhaps that's one reason I'm drawn to the CCG/LCG genre. I also am a fan of RPGs. I also like the game Munchkin quite a bit.

One of the things I believe about games is summed up as such: "The more times you can look back on a game and say 'If I had done this differently, I would have won,' the better the game is." Decision-making and strategy are my favorite aspects of all games.
Sorry to say, but that was rather obvious, wasn't it? ;) I was looking for a more detailed list. Actually naming a game or two helps people create an image of what kind of gaming others are already used to. There's always a gadzillion aspects to add to that, naturally, but it's something. ;)

The reason I'm asking is that your elvish draft units, and someone saying on the forums magic's combat system is widely recognized as a very good and working concept, to some extent imply you're drawing a lot from MtG. That is not a bad thing, I'm not saying that, but it gets me wondering what else is under your belt.

My bad if I'm being rude. :) I'll leave this be if it's unapropriated to require an answer to.

Anyways, thanks for the welcoming reply! I'll see what I can find out about the game when I have time.
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pennomi
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Re: 'Lo there!

Post by pennomi » Thu Jan 13, 2011 15:57

Kraus wrote: I'll, when I have time, try to search the site for first drafts of rules and such. It might be interesting to learn a bit more thoroughly what's going on in wtactics, enginewise. I'm sure to introduce this project to my friends next summer if the first playable drafts get finished. I think we find out rather quickly if games have what it takes to please us.
Here's a couple of places to start:
General information to get up to speed (This one should have basically all the links you'll need. Rules, Design Document, etc.)
Check out our files (Browse the newest versions of all files)
Using Bazaar (How to download the files from the trunk if you want to)
Keep in mind that the rules page in particular is still not up to par, since we've not yet started playtesting. One of our more exciting rules concepts is Resource Piles, though they're not well explained in the wiki. Try this forum topic for a better discussion on RPs.
Also, one of the best ways to get questions answered is over IRC. We almost always have someone on, so you can ask questions there. Look for snowdrop especially.
Sorry to say, but that was rather obvious, wasn't it? ;) I was looking for a more detailed list. Actually naming a game or two helps people create an image of what kind of gaming others are already used to. There's always a gadzillion aspects to add to that, naturally, but it's something. ;)

The reason I'm asking is that your elvish draft units, and someone saying on the forums magic's combat system is widely recognized as a very good and working concept, to some extent imply you're drawing a lot from MtG. That is not a bad thing, I'm not saying that, but it gets me wondering what else is under your belt.
Oops, yes, very obvious. :) Hmmm... more specific. I like MtG, the Wizards Star Wars TCG, Dungeons and Dragons, Munchkin, Killer Bunnies, Carcassonne, Chess, Scrabble, Werewolf (not sure if you've heard of this one... it's a social manipulation game :D ) and BrikWars (hilarious rulebook, hilarious game. You should read the rulebook if you want a laugh).
The combat system will be similar to MtG, as far as ATK/DEF are concerned, as well as having creatures block the attackers. We tried other methods, but they never worked as smoothly, so we got rid of them. We're not going to make something original and crappy if there's a better non-original concept out there.
Hopefully I've answered your question a little better than last time! I'm a big believer that you can tell more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato, I believe).
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snowdrop
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Re: 'Lo there!

Post by snowdrop » Thu Jan 13, 2011 22:43

Hi and welcome Kraus. Lovley to see a new face amongst or 5-man crew.
Kraus wrote:but keeping up with the latest info would've been much easier.
Most frequent stuff >> http://chaosrealm.net/wtactics/follow-us/
+ Blog posts at this site.

IRC is nice, but you'd have to have luck with timing. And other sources are better for info.
Wiki & forum is all good. Forum & blog both support RSS as well.
First of all, a lot of recognition for the layout and artwork of the cards
Thanks a bunch, appreciated.

It really helps to energize us when we get some positive feedback every now and then and is necessary for the morale. Believe it or not, but it doesn't happen often, and I don't think we're alone in that situation in the FLOSS-world. Most just whine and do nothing them self to advance a project, only bringing packs of crap instead of something creative & reformative.
! I have no idea who you've got to draw the additional artwork to fill in gaps left after using original artwork from Wesnoth, but s/he/they know what they're doing.


Sadly we didn't "get" anyone. Good artists usually don't do open source work for free, at least none we have found or attracted.

We pay for all new and original art that doesn't come from BfW. But I agree with you that the new art, especially from this latest artist, works wonders and is of adequate (and much beyond at times) quality in several regards. Personally I'm very happy with his work and think it's a pleasure to have him associated with the project.
So, the theme works, as Wesnoth tends to, and the layout of the cards is fabulous this far.
Actually we re-theme it somewhat, but not much visually. It's only related to lore. I myself think the setting I have put it in (and am still doing as the bg story isn't complete) creates a darker and more realistic down to earth world than the BfW version, and it allows us to break some fantasy stereotypes as well, introducing a portal to relate the game to real world issues and use it as a socical commentary without at the same time politicizing it too much.

There has been some discussion why we just didn't clone the BfW lore straight of in another thread in here. Answer is I believe ours to be better for our purposes and a CCG, and also more nuanced.
What games have you played before, and from where do you draw your inspiration?
I'm not sure it's really relevant for the project as a whole which games motivate each and one of us, as we have different backgrounds and experiences. It's all unified by the general design document in any case.

To answer your question though, I myself am mainly inspired by MtG and other CCG:s. I'm also inspired by strategical games and 4x games.

Just like you, I also play Small World and have bought every expansion for it. I enjoy Carcassonne and plenty of other games, and would usually avoid any and all games that aren't heavily based on thinking and skills instead of dice rolls.

When I fired up this project I had only one goal: To create a kick ass CCG that plays at least as well as the ones existing and that is truly free. That was it, and it still is. It was not to be original or deviate from the CCG genre. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is, try. I believe some things can be differently done than in MtG, things that would improve a game. We try to do just that: Keep the good, out with the less so.

Intention is not to clone MtG. It's also not to deviate as much as possible. It is what was written above. We don't know where we will end up, but wherever it is, it will be so because we think it benefits the game & players.

That said I personally hate, loath and dispise MtG.
Would you mind elaborating, piece by piece, why you hate it and what you hate about it? Hating a game as a whole seems hard to do - I bet you can be more explanatory and also isolate what issues you believe it has. I'd love to read if you're willing to share and be constructive.
outmatch Magic in replayability and fun.
In what ways isn't MtG replayable or un-fun? What were the scenarios where this became your impressions? (Notice: I don't give a shit about MtG and am far from a WotC-fanboy. I am just interested in understanding you...)
and what influences do you deliberately use, and search for?
I deliberately use MtG as an influence, but not as my goal. I'm also very, to some degree, influenced of strategical games that use space and positioning (chess, axis & allies, BfW, Civ, etc). I search for no influences but love reading rules for new CCG:s to see how they do it and maybe learn something. All in all, there's about a handful good ones. All in all, whatever CCG you choose, I can show you a 100 ways it clones of and relates to it's mother - MtG. It's not strange since being a CCG unavoidably entails some things...

No worries, I don't think of myself as one of those elitist/puritanist whatev's, who just have to barge into others' projects and get themselves heard.
It's an open forum of an open project. If we wouldn't want people barging in we'd close it. I'm sad to hear about projects where people are so protective they can't even handle posts in a forum ;) That said, if it's "their forum" I guess they're entitled to act like jerks in it as well.

Your input, as anyones, is always welcome on any topic. (Don't worry - we'd have private convos and hidden forum parts if it wasn't. The tech is there should the need arise.) Stay patient though: We're seldom interested in what can't be proven or at least be argued well for, are in no hurry, and would be able to use your input to a larger extent the more you knew about the project and what's going on.
Oh, and the compulsory bio: 22 years old, Finnish, currently studying English and Translation studies in Northern-Ireland. Yadda yaa.
Maybe want to help out translate our main blog site - it's static pages - to finish? (And later on perhaps also the cards, if you still favour the project.)
to some extent imply you're drawing a lot from MtG. That is not a bad thing, I'm not saying that, but it gets me wondering what else is under your belt.
As for mtg & WT: We differ mainly in:

- Resource system: We aim to have a smoother and better one.
- Spatial: Our game uses two battle zones, while MtG uses one. We therefore also have movement as a concept in the game. Also, each zone is more or less isolated from the other.

In addition to that and us being open source & community driven, we will have plenty of rules and design decisions that makes us stand apart more from MtG. For example, but not limited to:

- Different, more moderate, equip system.
- More creature centric - can't play a game with no creatures.
- Way less of counter spells (á la Blue MtG) and cheap creature insta deaths (a la Black MtG)

More differences would depend on what ideas people come with, how those can be incorporated with what we got, and if they make the game better or worse off measured in terms of the design documents.
I'm sure to introduce this project to my friends next summer if the first playable drafts get finished.
This summer there will likely not be a playable version with all factions ready. However, I do believe we should have 1-2 factions ready for something like an inofficial yet public playtesting where everyone that wants to can join and play ahead.
I think we find out rather quickly if games have what it takes to please us
The game becomes whatever you, your friends and others in the community makes of it: If you really have ideas of how a good game should be designed then speak them up, join our team or fork and start typing a rule set of your own - we'd love to have you here as a part of the family.
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Q_x
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Re: 'Lo there!

Post by Q_x » Fri Jan 14, 2011 17:16

Well, what can I add?

Welcome!
I hope this ride will not be bumpy :)

Oh, and I have played Shadowrun CCG some long time ago, also saw Doomtrooper and MTG.
I'm the filthy bastard you wish you never met.
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