[copono] Holas!!

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copono
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[copono] Holas!!

Post by copono » Mon Dec 31, 2012 18:11

Hi, my name German (literally, I'm from Argentina) and I'm known in forums as Copono.
Instead of speaking again about me, i'll copypaste (and edit a bit) from a chat

[...]
<snow|bf3> copono: welcome, and howdy.
<copono> :P
<snow|bf3> copono: may i ask where you heard about us? age/country?
<copono> thank you.
<copono> well, i play magic since a long time
<copono> but not a lot
<copono> just with some of my friends
<snow|bf3> copono: mtg is a good game, although it can be made "better" in some regards, which we try with WT
<copono> about me, i'm 26 and i live in atlanta
<copono> though, i'm originally from argentina
<snow|bf3> copono: what more games do you play?
<copono> only magic
<copono> i also played BFW
<snow|bf3> copono: and no other games? board/computer?
<copono> board no
<copono> at least not that kind
<copono> at most saboteour :P
<copono> i play chess
<copono> and pc games, i like different kinds
<copono> in general competitive ones, but i can enjoy other kinds
<copono> i'm playing sonic generations these days, in fact.
[...]

and well, hello everyone!

German
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snowdrop
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Re: Holas!!

Post by snowdrop » Tue Jan 01, 2013 03:12

...think people are also curious about your line of work or education... at least I am. ;) Also, drop some lines in what ways you think you want to participate in the project if you're up for it.
copono
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by copono » Tue Jan 01, 2013 06:27

ok

I'm PhD student at Georgia Institute of technology. I study Aerospace Engineering and I do computational mechanics. So I have some background in C++ and python, but only in numerical stuff.
In terms of software I do like open source stuff, but I'm ok about proprietary software too. I think that each thing has it's own place. I think for example that linux will never be as good as windows or mac for general productivity (though ubuntu is ok), but I like it for my scientific computing machine (I don't know if the drivers are going to be a problem now that the trend is to calculate with GPU though).

I don't know yet what i can contribute with, but i'm more interested in developing the game than source for the necessary software. I think that, for now, lackey is good enough for me. I frequently use inkscape, pixelmator (I can't afford photoshop) and sketchbook, but I don't think I can reach the quality of most drawings in the cards. Anyway, at least i might be able to do some basic stuff with my bamboo capture.

I like controversial debates, so, feel free to criticize my view about open source :P

Copono
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by snowdrop » Thu Jan 03, 2013 21:13

copono wrote:ok

I'm PhD student at Georgia Institute of technology. I study Aerospace Engineering and I do computational mechanics
I guess you know your math then? :P Might have use of that sooner or later ;)

In terms of software I do like open source stuff, but I'm ok about proprietary software too. I think that each thing has it's own place.
Yeah, I believe must of us in here share that notion... all depending on user-case scenario. Open or closed source doesn't tell us anything at all about the functionality of the sofwtare, per se, or how well it performs etc. It's just a licensing and in some cases ideological matter.
I think for example that linux will never be as good as windows or mac for general productivity (though ubuntu is ok), but I like it for my scientific computing machine (I don't know if the drivers are going to be a problem now that the trend is to calculate with GPU though).
I actually don't see how that's true, if you with "general productivity" mean the most common tasks that people do: Surf, print, consume media, etc. All that has been working excellent on desktop Linux the most recent 5 or so years and in very simplified manner with Ubuntu as you mention yourself. I can use myself as an example: I never use Windows for anything except gaming, and then only because those specific two titles haven't been released for Linux, while a thousand others have and more are coming via Steam.

As for the drivers Linux supports thousands of more devices out of the box and with zero-install than OS X or Win. Admittedly there is however a lag when a very n ew device hits the market that uses a new chipset, then new drivers would have to be put together by somebody that happens to have the knowledge, time and uses Linux ; ) Usually that happens though, and in any case - why would a person running Linux buy hardware that isn't supported for it? Makes no sense.

Running clustered computing is done perectly well in Linux and it's way ahead of any other OS judging by how the worlds supercomputers are setup and universities makes usage of clusters. When it comes to the GPU drivers NVIDIA just recently became more open source "friendly" while ATi has been so for a longer while. There's still a lot of catching up on that front though...

I don't know yet what i can contribute with, but i'm more interested in developing the game
Poke around wherever you want - you're always welcome! Do you have a headset? We could schedule a voice meeting using mumble and/or Skype.. I'd need some help with determining exactly how the Heroes will work... (all others are welcome as well this weekend)

I like controversial debates, so, feel free to criticize my view about open source :P
Then we're two that likes debates ;)
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by copono » Sat Jan 05, 2013 07:00

with productivity I meant producing, not consuming. For consuming, I actually think that the best is a tablet or a playstation. you don't need a computer. And that's why desktops are loosing market nowadays. Most people don't need that.

I also think that compatibility with old stuff doesn't count. Compatibility with 32 bits? compatibility with AGP cards? compatibility with IDE devices? DDR1?(DDR2 is ok yet) If I had any of those components I would consider throwing them. Maybe your phone is already more powerful.

I remember a few years ago, I bought a GeForce 8600 GT, which was 6 months in the market already and it didn't have compatibility with ubuntu for like 1 years. Nowadays I take the 8800 GT and using two monitors with ubuntu is a pain if you want the 3d to work.

My advisor spent many hours trying to install properly my quadro 5000 in my red hat machine and he gave up (he gave me an $8000 computer)

I don't know. It's not that it's bad, but it's always some problem. I want to plug something and I want it to work. I don't want any missing library, any compatibility issue, any anything. I want to do what I had in mind to do and I don't want to spend time registering in a forum and waiting for an answer.

And also you have to consider the software part. Windows have a lot of professional software that it's not anywhere else. Autodesk and Dassault are actually two I need and that doesn't produce much software for linux. Or without going far, Matlab's Simulink was horrible in linux until a few months ago. I know it's not linux fault. But when you are trying to be productive it doesn't matter. what matters is that with windows you can do it. Also, I like libreoffice, but word is better. Until libreoffice gets digital inking, It doesn't satisfy all my needs.

BTW, what do you think about the new ubuntu for mobile?
copono
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by copono » Sat Jan 05, 2013 07:12

Poke around wherever you want - you're always welcome! Do you have a headset? We could schedule a voice meeting using mumble and/or Skype.. I'd need some help with determining exactly how the Heroes will work... (all others are welcome as well this weekend)
Yes, i do have. I would also play a game with someone. It doesn't matter much the state of the things, but just to have a real feel of the game.
The main complication is that I usually connect very late (US east time) which for you in Europe is extremely late. So it's not going to happen frequently in a spontaneous way and it's going to need to be previously arranged in most cases.
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by snowdrop » Sat Jan 05, 2013 15:30

copono wrote:with productivity I meant producing, not consuming. For consuming, I actually think that the best is a tablet or a playstation. you don't need a computer. And that's why desktops are loosing market nowadays. Most people don't need that.
Sadly I agree that most people don't seem to use their computers to anything that actually produces anything. The tablets/"phones" and touch trend that is here and the way it also helps to insure that people stay unproductive by dumbing down programs (-> "apps") and creating a way of input that is good for anything but productivity and precision.
I also think that compatibility with old stuff doesn't count. Compatibility with 32 bits? compatibility with AGP cards? compatibility with IDE devices? DDR1?(DDR2 is ok yet) If I had any of those components I would consider throwing them. Maybe your phone is already more powerful.
Yeah, indeed. But power is relative to whatever is running on the hardware: Run a shitty OS on old hardware and you have a less powerful system. Run a better OS for that particular hardware and you get more benefits out of the hardware. What's interesting is the "creep" that has snuck into the minds of coders: 1-2 decades ago programmers always optimized code for performance to degrees that are more seldom seen today. Today they rely on people buying new processors instead or GPU:s. Why optimize code and do real coding when you can do sloppy unefficient work that will run anwyays since it's "compensated" by the "better hardware" of today? ;) The creep is also seen in the minimum requirements of every OS out there that are steadily becoming more and more demanding. Most obviously it can be seen in MS Win. So... people buy a new computer, but, they will also buy a new OS that will use up all of the new computers resources... so... it's more or less a zero sum equation.

I remember when I had my "Amiga 500" and used an OS that ran from 1 disk. It had loading times. Now, 25 years later, I am on a killer desktop with multiple cores, SSD and win 7 (I trippleboot, Ubuntu, Mint that I prefer, and Win 7 for playing Sc2 & Bf3) and it still has loading times ;) There is something of a paradox at work. Sure, I get more of the user experience today once it is loaded, but generally there is a questionable relationship between new hardware and software that really isn't what it could/should be...

I remember a few years ago, I bought a GeForce 8600 GT, which was 6 months in the market already and it didn't have compatibility with ubuntu for like 1 years. Nowadays I take the 8800 GT and using two monitors with ubuntu is a pain if you want the 3d to work.

My advisor spent many hours trying to install properly my quadro 5000 in my red hat machine and he gave up (he gave me an $8000 computer)
Yeah, but how does that differ from me buying software for "iOS" and then complaining when I can't get it to work in Windows? ;) I mean, clearly both cases were of mismatched hard/software. It's like putting a SEGA cartridge in a Nintendo and expecting to play Sonic. The problems could have been avoided would you have used the correct hardware (or software, meaning, not Linux in those cases) :twisted:
I don't know. It's not that it's bad, but it's always some problem. I want to plug something and I want it to work. I don't want any missing library, any compatibility issue, any anything. I want to do what I had in mind to do and I don't want to spend time registering in a forum and waiting for an answer.
On this I agree that Linux has a lot to deal with still. Issues are however mainly hardware producer related and their (un)willingness to release Linux drivers. That's pretty much it. The desktop is shaped up to such a degree today on the software side that I'd still recommend it anyday to an average user over Windows since I know for a fact that Win will break within 12 months after that user has installed it for one reason or the other, while I have yet to see Linux fail. That of course also requires the user to do some research before buying new hardware not afterwards ; )
And also you have to consider the software part. Windows have a lot of professional software that it's not anywhere else. Autodesk and Dassault are actually two I need and that doesn't produce much software for linux. Or without going far, Matlab's Simulink was horrible in linux until a few months ago. I know it's not linux fault. But when you are trying to be productive it doesn't matter. what matters is that with windows you can do it. Also, I like libreoffice, but word is better. Until libreoffice gets digital inking, It doesn't satisfy all my needs.
Yah, of course. Why select an OS if you can't get the functionality of whatever software you need. I think Adobe and Autodesk are two of the main reasons for why many workplaces still have Win around or OS X, and will keep doing so until mature enough open source stuff comes out on Linux and/or the programs are released native on Linux. In the end an OS should be chosen to suit it's user. For instance, Win7 really doesn't suit me (and nor does Unity in Ubunut) or what I mainly do or how I want my system setup, nor does OS X where you can't even customize the simplest of things and aren't even able to open up a folder in Finder with just clicking space or enter ;) At times I do boot into Win though for gaming, and at work I am forced to use OS X which is totally user-unfriendly and zero-productive in my mind as it can't adapt to the user due to the policy we have that says it's a superior system, while I at home stick to Mint whenever I actually do something.
BTW, what do you think about the new ubuntu for mobile?
In general I really don't understand the window-handling/swapping in Ubuntus Unity and find it a really bad experience for the desktop the way I am used to work with it (27", hd, desktop, multiple windows). I'm not saying it is a disaster, just that it is so for me and my productivity and understanding of what is going on when the classical taskbar isn't around.

I haven't tried Ubuntu for mobile but the last I saw of it was that it's more or less Ubuntu running on your mobile, making your desktop a thin client with the mobile docked into something and functioning as your computer. I think the concept is really interesting and more or less flawless in the longer run, eventhough I don't imagine it will work smoothly in the years to come due to hardware restrictions. I would love to try it out though and will likely buy such a "phone" when my current one dies if the hardware is on par with the rest of the markets.
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by copono » Sat Jan 05, 2013 16:34

For instance, Win7 really doesn't suit me (and nor does Unity in Ubunut) or what I mainly do or how I want my system setup, nor does OS X where you can't even customize the simplest of things and aren't even able to open up a folder in Finder with just clicking space or enter.
The customization of OS X and Windows is much better for most users than that of linux. All those customizations of linux are only available to a very small amount of people.
With OS X you have a terminal that is quite the same as that of linux. For doing Scientific computing I never needed something else. and it feels very compatible with linux. I mean, it has all you need to create software. And An OS is not something that one should care about. An OS is not more than something that allows you to run and manage software.
And that is the main problem of linux. Programmers think they are the center of the universe. They think that because they know, others should know. Because they care about, others should care. Because they spent time on that, others should too. And that's not going to convince people. Ubuntu changed that a little bit, but unless that continues in that trend, linux will never have a desktop market share above 10%, and software companies are never going to even think about producing software for it.
I think that people should never touch the terminal unless they code. And they shouldn't need to know (almost) anything about the OS in order to run the computer and use the software they need.
In terms of production, not everyone needs to produce in the computer. It's a lot of people doing it, but some people produce in other things. There is people painting on canvas, people in construction, people in sales, etc etc. And while computer is, each time taking more share in everything, It should be the computer the one that adapts to users needs, and not the user adapting to what the computer can do.
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by snowdrop » Sat Jan 05, 2013 19:33

copono wrote:
For instance, Win7 really doesn't suit me (and nor does Unity in Ubunut) or what I mainly do or how I want my system setup, nor does OS X where you can't even customize the simplest of things and aren't even able to open up a folder in Finder with just clicking space or enter.
The customization of OS X and Windows is much better for most users than that of linux. All those customizations of linux are only available to a very small amount of people.
Yes, I agree it is so for most users. That is not due to the systems inherent nature though. It's an effect of people not knowing other system(s). Maybe not that strange since most users first contact with a computer was on Win that came on their machine, pre-installed. (As for the customization of OS X I don't agree though and would actually rather use it of a an almost perfect where the user is expected to adapt to the system, and not vice versa. Virtually nothing beyond the changing of the wallpaper is customizable in OS X. Heck, there isn't even an option that allows you to set how fast the dock appears/disappears.)

In any case, most people/average users don't even know customzations are possible and don't desire them since they don't know what could have been done instead with or via the OS and the way it operates, affecting their workflow and everyday computer usage in positive ways. If I take that into account and I agree with you even more.
With OS X you have a terminal that is quite the same as that of linux. For doing Scientific computing I never needed something else. and it feels very compatible with linux. I mean, it has all you need to create software. /../ I think that people should never touch the terminal unless they code.


Yes, the terminal is the same or almost the same, both are unix based anyhow, so nothing strange there. I also agree with that the terminal shouldn't ever have to be used for anything at all by the average user, if the system is intended for the average joe out there that hardly knows that there are more than 1-2 OS:s to choose from in the first place and truly believes that a "mac" doesn't equate a "pc" ;) as the marketing would have it.
And An OS is not something that one should care about. An OS is not more than something that allows you to run and manage software.
True. At the time being though you really should care about what OS you choose, since it will greatly affect your work and possibilities depeneding on your usage of the computer. For example, if you want top notch gaming and playing mainstream titles then Win is your only viable option. I can't think of any situation where OS X would allow you to do anything that can't be done on Win or Linux, but let's pretend it exists. And then we have Linux, which of course will allow you to do everyday work and pretty much anything unless of course there happens to be a lack of software in some field or you're bound to certain standards (i.e. working with propriatary files). Whichever system of the three you run it will have a major impact of your everyday experience and possibilities.

I use Linux because I know that everything on it that I myself have any use of is free and also because it works and many times outperforms its counterparts, that coupled with the very modular nature of it and licenses makes it ideal for me, while also making it a bad choice for somebody else. Maybe a person doesn't have the proper hardware for it, or maybe one is used to OS X or rather use or have to use Adobe Illustrator instead of Inkscape, and so on.

I think crossplattform software is great and that the OS is, in the end and like you seem to argue, just the foundation that should stay behind the scenes and just make stuff work.
And that is the main problem of linux. Programmers think they are the center of the universe. They think that because they know, others should know. Because they care about, others should care. Because they spent time on that, others should too.
It's more of a problem within parts of the Linux community than Linux itself that there are plenty of arrogant zealots around. Then again, I don't think it matters much which OS a community is associated to. In the end there are countless good and bad parts of a community. You have the arrogant "elite" 14-year old users in all camps, everywhere from cult apple-fan-boys to windows overclockers and linux coders.

My personal theory is that Linux, due to it having been considered to be "hardcore" or "hard" for long, often attracted nerds with attitude that used their knowledge as a part of their identity and creation of a personal profile and presence online. It is easily seen in various forums where people try to outdo each other in how much mad skills they have by, among other things, distancing themselves from the average joe and mainstream that is clueless about computers in general and/or OS:s or code.

Maybe they are overrepresented in the Linux camp though, at least online, since offline at conventions and meetings you will more or less only meet very nice penguins. If you check out the figures for Humble Indy Bundle it also seems Linux users give more in terms of monetary support, and probably the same could be said about community, documentation, wikis etc put into proportions. Ubuntu is a good example even on the community level where they have a very very solid community with some excellent stuff going on that is yet to be matched by Apple or MS...
And that's not going to convince people. Ubuntu changed that a little bit, but unless that continues in that trend, linux will never have a desktop market share above 10%, and software companies are never going to even think about producing software for it.
It wouldn't bother me the least if Linux never got a share above even 5% on the desktop: It doesn't affect me, nor does it affect anyone that uses Linux today on his/her desktop. There is no inherent need to create an operating system that "conquers the world" (in that regard Linux "won" long time ago, virtually all of the internet is ran by it, and so are more or less all systems that matter around the world). I think it's computer interested teenagers that care about the figures, and companies that try to sell/develop software/hardware. Admittedly the more software there is for Linux the more likely it will be adopted by users, and the same goes for hardware.

If it would be up to me I'd happily see a scenario where there are even more OS:s competing as I believe competition is healthy and good for us as end users: I don't want a world that only runs Linux, but would happily see a world where it eats up to 50-70% of the market and, more importantly, where open source software and hardware continues to thrive.
And they shouldn't need to know (almost) anything about the OS in order to run the computer and use the software they need.
No, of course not. Again, I think there are very few Linux distros that do a good job right now on that front when/if you target the average joe.

Then again, I often meet "normal people" that are totally clueless about pretty much anything within their system, be it Win or OS X or even Android/iOS. The knowledge possessed by the general public about computing is probably even dumbed down the recent years thanks to "app-ification" and the oversimplification of software where you, yet again, have almost zero control and always follow very pre-defined wizards and templates and where the options are scarce, not due to technical reasons, but because the coders feared people wouldn't grasp the software if it wasn't infantilised before release.
In terms of production, not everyone needs to produce in the computer. /../ There is people painting on canvas


My worry is not about the computer not replacing a canvas or a toaster or whatever: I'm worried that pure consumer oriented soft/hardware, like for example an iPad, doesn't encourage or really give the possibility to be creative compared to a real computer with a traditional setup (mouse, keyboard, monitor). Heck, even such a simple task as writing an email or this forum post would be a pain in the ass on such a device in comparison, not to mention everything else. My worry is more one of generations of users and not about me or you as consumers as we probably grasp things in another way. I imagine that todays children that grow up using smartphones and tablets, mainly to consume or do very basic production (I wouldn't call tweeting or taking a picture and posting on facebook production) will have a totally different view and approach to the desktop, writing, using mice, working in CAD or 3d studio, coding, etc than previous computing generations. There are even studies that already show that their attentionspans and brains develop differently and in dire ways due to the idiotification that pure consumer media many times entails. Not only because it turns them into consumers, but because a larger portion of them will become pure consumers and because of what they consume. That, in all, is a tragic direction for humanity...
It should be the computer the one that adapts to users needs, and not the user adapting to what the computer can do.
Exactly my point for not using OS X ;) lol.. nah, just teasing you. Todays reality is that everything isn't compatible with everything. That forces us as users to adapt, to match soft and hardware. That matching can be described as us "adapting". It's a non-issue. Issue would be there if I want to use Linux, but can't because Illustrator or program x doesn't run on it. Then the choice is really simple: Develop the software yourself, find an alternative or stop using Linux ;) Using a system isn't a goal itself, as you wrote - the system is there to serve us. Whatever serves you the best should be your choice. :)
It's a lot of people doing it, but some people produce in other thing, people in construction, people in sales, etc etc. And while computer is, each time taking more share in everything,
I'm looking forward to when the 3d-printersm, especially open source ones, become really good... it's the next industrial revolution and will change the world in ways politicians haven't grasped yet making mainly raw materials and semi-refinement central, killing of plenty of other commerce... :geek:
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Re: [copono] Holas!!

Post by copono » Sat Jan 05, 2013 22:25

But, what I meant is that ubuntu is good, there's (almost) anything bad about it. But that's not enough. Independently of the beauties of the OS, it's not as good as OS X or WIN just for other factors. Sofware, hardware compatibility (even though they don't work on so many devices, in the ones they work they do it perfectly), hardware distribution, support, etc etc.
And BTW. Unless you want to do something to the OS, I don't see anything you can do in Linux that you can't in a Mac. You can even use any software from linux. So, you can use illustrator or inkscape. But the choice is yours.
But you know, I think that windows is the best for the user. You can chose your own hardware, you can install almost any software in the world, it looks awesome, has drivers for all the devices, etc etc (we are still speaking about general productivity, not servers).
I think that linux has now a great opportunity. Tablets are the future and right now they are not as good as they should be. If ubuntu makes it well, and they find good partners to produce hardware that works with ubuntu out of the box, they will finally have something the others don't.
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